The challenges of returning to work after maternity leave<\/h2>\n\n\n\nKate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
So you\u2019ve been off for six months now, Bex.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Just getting back into the swing of things after maternity leave. What\u2019s been the toughest thing about coming back to work?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
It is tricky coming back, because I think so much of your identity is tied up with, well, for me anyway, with my career, my work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then you\u2019ve put all of that on hold for however long, and then you\u2019ve got to try and scrabble it back somehow. I\u2019ve been lucky that I\u2019ve been able to come back gradually.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So my daughter Marina started by doing a couple of days in nursery, and then rising to three days. So I started taking on projects slowly and building my confidence back up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it is hard.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I mean, you don\u2019t want to deluge yourself with loads of projects, because you don\u2019t want to let anyone down.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You definitely don\u2019t want anyone thinking, \u201cShe\u2019s come back, but she\u2019s lost her edge, or she\u2019s not really got her mind in the game at the moment.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So you want to make sure that all the work you do when you come back from maternity leave is still exceptional.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But at the same time, I\u2019m breastfeeding my daughter.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So when she\u2019s at nursery, I have to do pumping and interrupt my flow If I\u2019m writing a feature or recording a podcast and go off and get the dreaded machine out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019s an awkward conversation in itself, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Have you been midway through a meeting and said, \u201cExcuse me, I\u2019ve got to go and pump.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I have. I\u2019m just zero filter.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I don\u2019t know whether it\u2019s kind of post-pregnancy hormones, but I\u2019ll be like, \u201cReally sorry, my boobs hurt. Got to go.\u201d And then that\u2019ll be the end of the online meeting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
People have been really nice about it, though.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
And have you found it hard to pick up work again since you\u2019ve been back?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Or have you got the opposite problem where you\u2019re being inundated with emails and work?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I think this is the interesting thing about having kids later in life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m going to be 40, so I\u2019ve had all this time to establish my career. Some of the clients that I\u2019ve had have been with me for years, so it was quite easy when I stepped away to tell them I\u2019ll be back on this date.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And some of these clients were just ready to step back in as soon as I was back at my laptop. And that\u2019s been great, and I just had two or three that were primed, ready to go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I haven\u2019t been brave enough to do the full mail out yet and let my whole portfolio of clients know that I\u2019m back, because I\u2019m just terrified that there will suddenly being way too much work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then I\u2019ll have to have lots of awkward conversation and be like, \u201cI\u2019m really sorry. I told everybody I was available, but actually I\u2019ve already said yes to this, this and this, and I can\u2019t do anything for you now.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m just waiting to do that basically.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah. Well the secret is out now. The minute this podcast episode comes out, you\u2019re going to have a deluge of emails and work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ll be like, \u201cWhat? You didn\u2019t tell us? Rude.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Never fully commit to a project until you\u2019re confident you can do the work<\/h2>\n\n\n\nKate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
So I did want to bring up that point actually around saying no to work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What\u2019s the best way to do it? How do you do it without burning any professional bridges?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
If you want me to bring the realness, I will often say just lie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you do not want to do a project, the best way to let someone down is just to say, \u201cI\u2019m really sorry, this sounds fabulous. I\u2019d be really keen to do it, but I\u2019m just too busy.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think sometimes, that is just the way to manage everyone\u2019s emotions, yours, and the clients.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I know that you\u2019re not supposed to lie. I know we\u2019re all supposed to bring our best selves to work and be brutally honest, but I find sometimes, that\u2019s just the best way to avoid having an awkward conversation in the first place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Are you more honest than me? Do you tell people exactly why you\u2019re turning them down?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
No. So if it\u2019s something I really don\u2019t want to do, and I know I don\u2019t want to do it because of that feeling in my stomach, I\u2019ve just definitely learned to trust that a bit more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If I just think, not keen, I will turn it down even if it\u2019s lucrative, I will go with the, \u201cI\u2019m too busy,\u201d or I will say, \u201cI don\u2019t think I\u2019m the best fit for this.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I will be honest, and I will try and then put them in touch with another freelancer who would be better and is available. I think if you can present them with another solution, that kind of keeps you in their good books.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If it is a case of I\u2019m just too booked up and busy, I will try and tell them when I\u2019m available.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I might say, \u201cI\u2019m really booked up at the moment, but available from September. So please let me know if anything else comes up.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Just because I don\u2019t want them to not think about me the next time a project comes up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019s so funny, that sinking feeling that you described. Because I know it inside out, just when you read the brief, and literally your stomach just drops away, and you think, \u201cThis is just going to be a nightmare.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you don\u2019t listen to that feeling, and I did that just before I went on to maternity leave, a big regular client came to me and said, \u201cWe\u2019ve got this white paper, and Oxford University have put it together, and it\u2019s about this really gnarly issue in financial services. We want you to write the executive summary.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I looked at it, and I was like, \u201cI don\u2019t really know that much about this particular quirk of financial services.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I had that sinking feeling, and something was telling me, \u201cDon\u2019t do it. Don\u2019t do it\u201d But it was good money.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I said, \u201cLet me have a look.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then they sent me the report, and it was just illegible. I didn\u2019t understand how they\u2019d come up with these numbers, the data matrix was just a complete spaghetti junction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I had to pull out at that point and be like, \u201cI\u2019ve read the report. I think the report\u2019s really awful and there\u2019s no way I can make an executive summary out of it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I didn\u2019t say it as brutally as that, but that was my punishment for not just listening to my gut.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
But it was good that you hadn\u2019t actually agreed. You just said, \u201cSend me a copy of the report, so I can have a look and work out whether I\u2019m the right fit for this.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think that was a really good move, that you didn\u2019t agree to it until you had got the full brief and what you were getting yourself into.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, never completely commit until you\u2019re confident you can do the work and do it to the best of your ability.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Otherwise, yes, awkward conversations will follow.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Don\u2019t let your ego stand in the way of amazing opportunities<\/h2>\n\n\n\nKate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
So what happens where you have committed, you\u2019ve signed the dotted line, you are halfway through a project, and then the client asks you to do something as part of that project that you are not comfortable with?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What do you do?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, I was thinking about this, because there\u2019s been a few instances where I\u2019ve suddenly been like, \u201cI don\u2019t really enjoy this anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve realised that it happens either because, I\u2019ll be frank, of my own ego. Or it\u2019ll happen because there\u2019s something ethically dubious about what I\u2019ve been asked to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And what I\u2019ve learned is that when it\u2019s to do with ego, I\u2019ll give you an example.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
One of my tech clients I do some ghostwriting for, I used to write all these really great entrepreneur posts for him, tips, and tricks on how to grow your business faster.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I loved that stuff, and I loved that it went out into the world, and it got loads of likes and loads of comments. And you kind of bask. No one knew it was me writing it, but you bask in the reflected glow of this post doing well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Then he got a new marketing director, and the marketing director was like, \u201cThis is an unnecessary expense. You need to be putting loads of detail about the platform, about the features and about customer testimonials into this.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I started to have to write what was basically marketing fluff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I hated it, and I felt like it\u2019d gone so far from the original brief, and I wanted to quit because I was like, \u201cI\u2019m not a marketing person.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when I was reading back what I\u2019d written, I didn\u2019t feel any pride in my work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I had to just have a word with myself and be like, \u201cDon\u2019t get too big for your boots. This is a great client. He\u2019s asked you to do this job. Do the job to the best of your ability. At least you can try and make it a bit more entrepreneur focused because that\u2019s what you care about.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And low and behold, after a month or so, that marketing director got the sack, and then we went back to writing the original post. And if I had pulled out, then I would\u2019ve lost a really great client and soured a relationship, and then ultimately lost that revenue stream.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So that was the right way to go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But then on the other side, I had a client who wanted me to change quotes, wanted me to change direct quotes so that they were more favourable about their product.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And at that point I was like, \u201cThat\u2019s not my ego, that is kind of an ethical issue.\u201d And then I had to pull out, and I had to say no.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think it\u2019s important to know, is it ethics or is it ego, and make the right call.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What about you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019ve had similar situations on both fronts actually, where it\u2019s around ego, and I don\u2019t feel proud of what I\u2019m writing. But that\u2019s become the brief and I have to stick to it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I will sometimes just say, \u201cLook, I\u2019m really happy to do this, but can we not include my name against the piece?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And people are normally happy with that. So I would consider it more like copywriting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In other situations, I\u2019ve been asked to interview people. And when I\u2019ve researched them, I\u2019ve realised that they have a really bad reputation in the industry, or there\u2019s been some poor reviews about the company, or there\u2019s been some legal action against them, and I\u2019m just not comfortable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And usually, I will flag that immediately with the client and say, \u201cI don\u2019t think it\u2019s good for me to interview them and I don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to be a good look for you.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Normally clients will immediately pull that interview because they don\u2019t want to be tarnished with that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think again, it\u2019s just about being really honest. The minute there\u2019s a red flag, you should raise it, and not be afraid to do so.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think it\u2019s also awkward where a lot of this is in emails, and sometimes the tone of your email or the tone of a client\u2019s email can be very different to the way that you would speak to somebody.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I would always advise trying to put things in writing, but also jumping on a Zoom call with someone is so easy now. We\u2019ve got Zoom, and Teams, and Google Meet, and everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s so much easier to do that, whereas before you\u2019d want to try and meet a client for a coffee to have those face-to-face conversations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Now I\u2019d say put everything in writing in an email, but do try and have a face to face as well, because the tone is going to be very different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s amazing how you can diffuse an awkward conversation with a smile just by showing that you are being positive in your approach to the theme or the topic or the challenge, and you\u2019re just presenting yourself as willing to negotiate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You are just presenting your view, but you\u2019re smiling. There\u2019s no ruffled feathers, no bad feelings. It makes such a difference. I think that\u2019s a really good bit of advice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, I think the more conversations you have that feel slightly awkward, the better you are as a freelancer or as a leader.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Actually, there\u2019s a really good quote from Tim Ferriss who\u2019s the American entrepreneur and author, and he said, \u201cA person\u2019s success in life can be measured by the number of uncomfortable conversations he or she is willing to have.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think that word willing is really important because you have to put yourself out there and think, \u201cI\u2019m going to be honest.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And actually you could reframe uncomfortable and awkward as just honest.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to approach awkward conversations with your partner about your freelancing lifestyle<\/h2>\n\n\n\nKate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Actually, I wanted to talk to you as well because it\u2019s not just conversations with clients. It\u2019s also awkward conversations with your partner that you have to have, which is a slightly different angle.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think as a freelancer, it\u2019s often you and your job that means you can\u2019t necessarily get that mortgage, or you can\u2019t necessarily plan for the summer holidays because you don\u2019t know how much income is going to be coming in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How do you have those kinds of awkward conversations or financial conversations with your partner?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I think it would be so much harder if my husband was also a freelancer. But because he works, not exactly 9am to 5pm, but he\u2019s got his working week, his set hours, it means that I can have some flexibility, because we\u2019re not at war for that time when he\u2019s booked off.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But actually, \u201cLook, there\u2019s got to be a last-minute call.\u201d It doesn\u2019t work like that for him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think because I met my husband when I was already freelancing, he\u2019s never known a different version of me. He\u2019s never known a version of me that isn\u2019t semi switched on, checking my emails, having to field last-minute requests from clients.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think it\u2019s never been a real issue.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
When it came to our mortgage application, that\u2019s a funny one because it was tricky. I think in the end, I had to work my socks off, and have an amazing year as a sole trader.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally had to double my revenue in a year. And then do my accounts, get my lovely accountant to do my accounts right after the year the financial year had ended.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it was like at the end of January he started doing it, so that I could quickly get an extra year\u2019s earnings on to my mortgage application. So I think in that case, I was able to present a solution. So that was sort of alright.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019ve just been really lucky though because I was so established as a freelancer by that point, that a lot of those awkward moments had passed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think if you are just starting out, then you\u2019ve got three years of potentially some of those sticking points to deal with before you are home free.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What about you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019ve been travelling all over the world recently and leaving your lovely husband James to hold the fort while you\u2019ve been in Dubai and New York.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Tell us about how you managed to swing that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
So that\u2019s a very honest and frank conversation you have to have. So recently I\u2019ve had some really amazing jobs in Saudi Arabia, India, and America, which has taken me off and away from the family.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But those kinds of ad hoc, lucrative projects, are really exciting, to be able to travel as well, means that we have to have a conversation where we are prioritising my job in that instance.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he then finds a way to work his job so that he can be there for the school pickups and look after the kids for four days or five days or however long away for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I just think it actually does really help when you\u2019ve got a super supportive partner no matter what role you are in, and especially when you have a family thrown into the mix as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I do think it\u2019s hard.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I do think it\u2019s hard working out who does what at home and at work. I think those are always awkward conversations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I think that whether it\u2019s your client, or your partner, or freelancers that you might work with, I think the trick is always the give and the take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So to make sure that you look out for one another. And if someone gets a really amazing opportunity, you don\u2019t stand in their way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But similarly, you try and make yourself available for when they get the amazing opportunity. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you just have to try and make sure there\u2019s ebb and flow back and forth between you, which is just the essence of making any sort of cooperation work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The best way to negotiate a pay rise<\/h2>\n\n\n\nKate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, 100%.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And earlier, you touched on negotiations, so I did want to ask you about the best way to negotiate a pay rise from your client.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How do you deal with that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I wish I was better at it, and I think that it\u2019s something I would like to work on as a freelancer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m pretty good at saying, \u201cLook, my experience level is here. The world has changed. I have proven myself in this way and that way. We\u2019ve seen this success as evidenced by metric A, metric B. Therefore, I would like a little bit more money.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to be really evidence-based when you ask for more money. You can\u2019t just be like, \u201cI\u2019d like an extra \u00a350,\u201d or, \u201cI\u2019d like to put up my prices.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think you have to say, \u201cLook, this is what I\u2019ve done for you. This is how successful you\u2019ve been because of our partnership, and I would like that reflected in my remuneration.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it is hard to do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I mean, some people say they put their prices up every year. I mean that sounds amazing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d be making a fortune if I put them up every year. But I do it once every three years, which is not awful, but not great.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s only an awkward conversation if you can feel that the client is either struggling financially or doesn\u2019t see the true value in what you do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And so I think before you even start having a money conversation, it\u2019s just really important to choose the clients and the projects where you know that the client sees you as an amazing asset and sees the work that you do as being a credit to their organisation or for their personal brand, because that is the bedrock that makes that conversation possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How about you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What do you do when you want a little bit more moolah?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Well I agree. I think first of all, I do think clients are expecting it in this climate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I mean, I know a lot of service people that we use have put their prices up, and I expect it and agree with it, because we\u2019ve got a cost of living crisis going on. Inflation is sky-high.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I don\u2019t think when you are telling clients you are putting your prices up, it\u2019s enough just to blame inflation. I think you\u2019re right. You have to talk about the whole experience that you are offering them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And actually, we did an episode with James Ashford, who\u2019s the founder of GoProposal, and he had a really good quote around having those conversations around prices.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He said, \u201cYou can\u2019t just talk about price without talking about the whole experience. People remember how you made them feel long after they\u2019ve forgotten what you\u2019ve done for them. You have to have a method of presenting everything that you believe that person needs.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Which I think is really interesting. And it\u2019s what you were saying as well, you have to talk about what else you are bringing other than just the work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So you are bringing your experience, you are bringing your contacts book. I often find as part of a project, I will link my client to other people or give them great entrepreneurs to interview. And that\u2019s actually really invaluable to give them those connections.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think it\u2019s really presenting yourself in that way and showing them what they\u2019re going to be missing out on if they don\u2019t pay you that premium.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think it\u2019s also really important to talk to other freelancers who have worked with that client just to get a sense of, are they good payers? Do they pay on time? What\u2019s the going rate?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I do a lot of work for the Financial Times, and I think they\u2019re really good in that they have set fees for whatever you are doing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you are working for the FT Live on organising a half day event, there are set fees in place so whoever\u2019s working on that project will get paid exactly the same.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I often use those rates and show them to other clients and say, \u201cWell this is what the FT pays, so let\u2019s do it in line with that.\u201d And I think that\u2019s really helpful to have a list of fees.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because actually sometimes, if you\u2019re taking out that process of negotiation, it\u2019s much easier on everybody.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah. And you are completely right. When you are taking on a freelance project, you don\u2019t know if that project happened before, how much that freelancer got paid.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s so helpful if you have a network, and you can say, \u201cHave you worked for a similar organisation before? Have you done a similar kind of project or scope of work, and what did you charge?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because otherwise, it\u2019s awful. It\u2019s so awful when you realise that you\u2019ve charged half of what you could have done for a project, and you find out way down the line that so and so was getting double.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s a kick in the teeth because it\u2019s your own fault. You\u2019ve underpriced yourself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They said, \u201cWhat did you charge?\u201d You told them the number, and it was wrong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, doing your research upfront so that you make sure you get what\u2019s fair, that\u2019s vital as well, I think.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to deal with negative feedback<\/h2>\n\n\n\nKate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, definitely. And with awkward conversations. What about at the end of a project?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So you\u2019ve negotiated great fee, you\u2019ve done some, what you thought was great work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But then the client\u2019s come back and said they\u2019re not happy, or they want to make a lot of changes to your copy, or for whatever reason, you haven\u2019t lived up to their expectations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How do you deal with negative feedback?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019ve basically borrowed my approach from retail, which is the customer is always right.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if someone\u2019s not happy with my work, even if I think I\u2019ve done it to the best of my ability, I will apologise. I will say, \u201cI\u2019ll do whatever it takes to fix it. Just tell me how I can improve. I really want you to be happy.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And again, I know I talked about ego earlier. But sometimes, you just have to swallow your pride and just put your hands up, especially if you have made a mistake.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Absolutely, if you have made a mistake and say, \u201cThis is entirely on me. I am really sorry that this mistake slipped through. I\u2019m going to fix it now, and let me know if there\u2019s anything else I can do to try and mitigate the consequences of this mistake.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And actually, the way that you respond to someone telling you, you\u2019ve made a mistake, if you make it a positive interaction, you\u2019re humble, you\u2019re apologetic, that\u2019s what the client remembers. They don\u2019t remember the mistake later on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They just remember how easy you made it to fix it, how approachable you were. If you are like, \u201cThat wasn\u2019t me,\u201d or, \u201cI was in a rush\u201d or \u201cYou put pressure on me\u201d and \u201cYou moved the deadline, or you change the brief\u201d, and you make any excuses like that, that\u2019s what they remember.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They remember how unpleasant that particular confrontation was.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So hopefully it doesn\u2019t happen very often, but I think any mistake you make is an opportunity to be really brilliant about fixing it, and ultimately come out of it with a stronger relationship as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How about you? What do you do when you\u2019ve made a mistake? Have you made any big mistakes that you can remember?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I mean, definitely not Bex, because I\u2019m flawless.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I mean I wouldn\u2019t say touch wood, I\u2019ve made any huge howlers. But there have been instances where if you\u2019re writing a piece for the FT, they\u2019re going to come back with edits, or they\u2019re going to say, \u201cActually, can you get a few more quotes out of this person?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think when you are producing copy particularly, you can feel quite precious about the words that you\u2019ve written and the research that you\u2019ve put into it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I will always completely agree with their professional opinion and do what they\u2019ve asked me to do, because I would say that\u2019s also built into the fee, that if they want to make some changes, or they need some extra quotes or research, then I will definitely do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And usually, it\u2019s ended up that the piece is better because of those edits, and they\u2019re really thrilled.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Actually, the last two pieces I\u2019ve written for the FT have been on the front page of the supplement that I\u2019ve written for. So everyone\u2019s ended up being really being happy with that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But yeah, it can be hard to deal with any kinds of negative feedback, particularly where you don\u2019t agree with what they\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I have had instances where they\u2019ve wanted to change some of the sentences, and it either hasn\u2019t quite made sense, or it\u2019s actually just made it quite boring. Because you want people to be really engaged with your article immediately.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if they\u2019re trying to change the intro and make it more salesy for whatever reason, depending on what client you\u2019re working for, it just takes all the juju out of your piece.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But again, sometimes you just have to say, well that\u2019s what they\u2019ve paid for. If that\u2019s what they\u2019re going to be happy with, I\u2019m going to let it go down to the ego again.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
But that\u2019s it. And so in the newspaper world, we talk about it as killing your darlings.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So often when you are writing a news piece, and you\u2019ve got particular flourish or a turn of phrase, it\u2019s a thing that you like the best about the thing that you\u2019ve written. And that will invariably be the thing that the editor takes out, and you feel so emotionally invested in that thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I did it recently. I wrote a piece for a big wealth manager, and it was all about how the super-rich engage their family in conversations about wealth planning.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
\u201cDo you tell your kids how much each of them are getting?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I started the piece with a quote from Notorious B.I.G. like \u201cMo Money Mo Problems\u201d. I was like, \u201cThis is genius. This is genius.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I don\u2019t know whether it made it through the sign-off presence, but I could see that was my darling on the page in the intro, and I was just telling myself, \u201cBe prepared for that to be the first thing that gets cut, and be chill about it. Be gracious when it goes.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Setting boundaries and expectations with your clients<\/h2>\n\n\n\nKate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
And have you had clients where their expectations are sky-high, and there\u2019s no sense of boundaries?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So they\u2019re emailing you in the middle of the night, or texting you at weekends, or setting impossible deadlines. How do you deal with those kinds of clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s interesting, isn\u2019t it? Because I can think of two instances in recent history where that\u2019s been the case. And one client who does sometimes call me at 7:00pm and says, \u201cI need you to do something urgently for me, and I need to be able to put it out tomorrow morning.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I love him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He is such a nice man, and he is the kind of person that will say, \u201cIt\u2019s 7:00pm, I know you\u2019re in the middle of bedtime with your kids. I need this done. I will pay you double.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And so the ebb and flow is there, and I will always bend over backwards to do something for him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But then there was another potential client, no longer a client, who wanted me to write a book for them, and they were just constantly sending me ideas, and asking me to redraft things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I mean, we hadn\u2019t even got as far as, we\u2019d had some ideas about how the chapters would go, and I\u2019d started writing a sample Chapter One.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it was just constant and a frenzy of communication. And it was exhausting, and it was getting in the way of me actually writing the thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the end, I had to pull out of the whole project.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I had to say to the guy, \u201cI think honestly, you don\u2019t want me to write it. I think you want to write it, which is why you keep criticising everything that I am putting together. I think ultimately this is your baby. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
You want to be the one that puts pen to paper, and you want to feel like you\u2019re in control of the whole project. And that\u2019s why I think maybe you are blocking me from getting anywhere with it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he said, \u201cYou know what? You\u2019re completely right, and that is how it is. And maybe I should go away and try and write it by myself. Then at least if I don\u2019t succeed, I can come back to you in a year or so, and then I\u2019ll know that there\u2019s no way I\u2019m going to do it on my own. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
\u201cAnd then we can start again.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I mean, I won\u2019t go back to the project, but at least we parted as friends.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Try to have difficult conversations face to face rather than over an email<\/h2>\n\n\n\nKate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
And did you say that in an email, or did you say that face-to-face?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
No, I wasn\u2019t able to do it face-to-face, but I did it over the phone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I picked up the phone and I said, \u201cMr. So-and-so, it\u2019s really great to catch you on the phone. I just wanted to clear the air a little on this project. I\u2019ve been seeing that you\u2019ve made a lot of edits,\u201d and there\u2019s some very specific things that he wanted.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he loved, do you know the oat milk brand Oatly? Have you heard of it or seen it on shelves?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yes, I\u2019m a fan.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, okay. Well, do you know the tone, in every cup of coffee?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Well, the tone of voice they use on the packaging, I think it\u2019s a bit Marmite-y. I hate it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are people who love it, but it\u2019s like on one side, it\u2019s got, \u201cThis is the boring side. Please do not read if you don\u2019t want to hear about our fabulous\u201d\u2026 I find the whole tone really patronising.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Anyway, he came back to me and said that he wanted the whole first chapter of this project rewritten in the Oatly tone. And at that point I was like, \u201cCome on.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So on this call I said, \u201cThis and this and this that you\u2019ve asked for. It\u2019s getting to the point where it\u2019s just unmanageable, and I cannot do the job that you are asking of me. But I do think that maybe you would love to have a crack at it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I tried to be charming, tried to be persuasive in the way that I said, \u201cIt could be really hard to hand over your baby. This is your idea, and then you\u2019re trusting a complete stranger to try and bring your idea to life. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
\u201cI get that it\u2019s a hard process. Are you sure you don\u2019t want to have some time to put pen to paper? I\u2019m not going to make you pay my fee. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
\u201cI\u2019m happy to give you the space and time to do this.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think he was just so relieved that the elephant in the room was now visible to all, but it had to be over the phone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because if I tried to in an email, he would\u2019ve probably got really cross, thought that I was just trying to start an argument. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, it had to be done with charm and diplomacy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
And you can soften a conversation and put on that charm over the phone or via video. In those face-to-face conversations, I do think it\u2019s much easier. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
But yeah, I\u2019ve had instances where the client is also getting in the way of me doing the project.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019ve had clients that want to have meetings sort of three times a week, and those are really time-consuming. They\u2019re often not built into the fee that I\u2019m charging because that wasn\u2019t agreed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Particularly where I\u2019ve been doing some work in America, I\u2019m then having to do it on US time as well. So that\u2019s been hard.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to say, \u201cI\u2019m happy to do these phone calls. Here are the times that I\u2019m available, and can we agree how many we\u2019re going to do a week? And then I can build that into the fee project going forward.\u201d So I\u2019ve had to sort of call it out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A lot of the time, it\u2019s often the client\u2019s client who are behaving in that way. So if you tell your contact, \u201cActually I\u2019m struggling, this isn\u2019t what was agreed.\u201d Hopefully they will be on your side and have your back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So again, I think it\u2019s just about setting those boundaries of what you can and can\u2019t do. And making sure if that does change, it\u2019s built into the fee structure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
And remembering that these people were hard to work with when it comes to the next time, they approach you with work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I mean, one of the joys of being a freelancer is that you might have to suck it up when you have a slightly tricky client, but you never have to work with them again.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can see their name pop up in your emails and be like, \u201cSorry, I\u2019m too busy.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Top tips for successful confrontation<\/h2>\n\n\n\nKate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
So what would you say Bex then, are your overall sort of rules for a successful confrontation?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I think the first thing is to avoid them all together by vetting your clients carefully, by being very clear about what is the parameters of the project, your fee, how far you\u2019re willing to go, whether you\u2019ve got any wiggle room in terms of, do you have two projects overlapping?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can something take a bit longer or not? So that\u2019s step one is to just try and mitigate any of those problems before they arise.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The second thing is to try as much as you are able to do business with people that you like, because it\u2019s so much easier to have those confrontations if there\u2019s mutual respect, and you actually really want to reach a solution that works for both parties. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
So that really helps.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The third thing I would say is don\u2019t run away from awkward conversations. Don\u2019t hide. Don\u2019t ghost someone just because you don\u2019t want to have that conversation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Face up to the problem, and you\u2019ll often find that your anticipation of the conversation is so much worse than the actual conversation itself. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019ll build up in your mind, you\u2019ll be so worried it\u2019ll be a nightmare.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then nine times out of 10, you\u2019ll just explain the issue, and they\u2019ll be like, \u201cI didn\u2019t realise I was doing that. Of course this would be what you would think,\u201d or whatever. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just resolved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say those are my top three. Your top three?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I would say always go for the sandwich email, which is nice comment, negative comment, nice comment. So sandwich it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Sandwich.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah. I heard that from, I think it was an HR director who obviously has to have a lot of awkward conversations via email with staff that they\u2019re firing, etc.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, always try and bookend what you are saying with nice comments. Always be kind. Kindness is underrated. People will remember you for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would also say try not to let your emotions get in the way of a confrontation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you are really angry or really upset about something, don\u2019t send the email at that point. Sleep on it. Everything\u2019s always going to feel better in the morning.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019s a really good point. Although I would say sometimes, it\u2019s a joy to just burn that bridge.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sometimes, when you\u2019ve spent all week being really nice, and just being the rational party, I had an instance recently where a client that I hated working with and stopped working with then came back and asked me for something really unreasonable, and I just let them have it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I have to say it felt fabulous.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes when I\u2019m feeling a bit low, I go back and read that email exchange, and I just laugh about how good it felt to say, \u201cNo, not doing it. You were a nightmare. Not working with you again,\u201d and just burnt that bridge to the ground, never going back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So occasionally just let the rough out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kate Bassett:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah. So to sum up, if you\u2019ve got a really hideous client, get the match out, light it, burn that bridge.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Burn that bridge to the ground.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this small business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n We are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Join our community to share your insights and stories on Twitter @SageIreland<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\n You can find out more about Kate on her website<\/a> or follow her on Twitter<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n You can also find out more about Bex on her website<\/a> or follow her on Twitter<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n \n Get your free guide, business plan template and cash flow forecast template to help you manage your business and achieve your goals.<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t Join 1.5 million subscribers and get the best business admin strategies and tactics, as well as actionable advice to help your company thrive, in your inbox every month.<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t Our Sound Advice hosts Kate and Bex explore awkward conversations that freelancers have with their clients and how to handle them confidently.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1612,"featured_media":14180,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"audio","meta":{"_sage_video":true,"post_featured_image_hide":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[162],"tags":[107,130,332],"business_type":[5],"lilypad":[],"context":[],"industry":[],"persona":[232],"imagine_tag":[230],"coauthors":[479],"class_list":["post-14193","post","type-post","status-publish","format-audio","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growth-customers","tag-business-finances","tag-grow-business","tag-sound-advice-podcast","post_format-post-format-audio","business_type-small-business"],"sage_meta":{"region":"en-ie","author_name":"Kate Bassett","featured_image":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/13\/2023\/07\/Blog_S2_Ep24.jpg","imagine_tags":{"230":"Small business"}},"distributor_meta":false,"distributor_terms":false,"distributor_media":false,"distributor_original_site_name":"Sage Advice Ireland","distributor_original_site_url":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog","push-errors":false,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/posts\/14193","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/users\/1612"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=14193"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/posts\/14193\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/media\/14180"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=14193"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=14193"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=14193"},{"taxonomy":"business_type","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/business_type?post=14193"},{"taxonomy":"lilypad","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/lilypad?post=14193"},{"taxonomy":"context","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/context?post=14193"},{"taxonomy":"industry","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/industry?post=14193"},{"taxonomy":"persona","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/persona?post=14193"},{"taxonomy":"imagine_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/imagine_tag?post=14193"},{"taxonomy":"author","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/api\/wp\/v2\/coauthors?post=14193"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}Want to know more about Kate Bassett and Bex Burn-Callander?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
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