After successfully selling jars of Pip & Nut at London\u2019s Maltby Street Market, she was soon seeing her product shelved in the likes of Selfridges and Sainsbury\u2019s.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In this episode, Pip explores the challenges of running a sustainable food business, with everything from combating climate change to getting your product on the shelves in big supermarkets.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Here is her unfiltered advice below:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
- \n
- Experiment with your food idea in your own kitchen first<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n
- How to know your idea is ready for market<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n
- Take the time to understand and educate your consumer<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n
- Make sure to consider the social and environmental impact of your business<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n
- Create a distinct identity for your product through its packaging<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n
- How to land a big supermarket listing<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n
- Your product is on the shelves, now you have to sell it<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n
- Don\u2019t become obsessed with watching your competitors<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n
- Getting a big listing you can\u2019t afford to stock and how Brexit has affected food businesses<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n
- Try and keep six months\u2019 worth of cash in the business at all times<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n
- The best way to learn is to dive in head first<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n
- Find mentors that can fill in the specific gaps in your knowledge<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n
- Build a sustainable brand that helps combat climate change<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n
Experiment with your food idea in your own kitchen first<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I want you to take me back because it was the heady days of 2015, is that right? And you were a marathon runner, a very hungry marathon runner.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, how did you come up with the idea for Pip & Nut?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, you\u2019re right. It was about eight years ago or even nine years ago that I had the first idea for the brand and very much was inspired by my running.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You are also very right that I was a hungry runner.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I\u2019m a real foodie at heart and have been since I was really young. And I live in London, it\u2019s a great melting pot of food inspiration generally.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But certainly the inspiration came, I think specifically for this product range, was linked to the fact that I was running lots and naturally looking for protein and natural sources of fuel for my training.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I guess as a foodie I also wanted something that was really delicious and nut butter and peanut butter was always my go-to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it was funny because back then this particular category looked quite different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The landscape was very beige and browns and it was a lot of the products I picked up had palm oil in. And from a sustainability perspective and the health perspective, it\u2019s not a particularly great ingredient.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And a lot of the products I found either were really Americanised, quite processed, or just quite health-led and not really appealing to a foodie like me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, it\u2019s an interesting one, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
When you look at launching a brand and a product range is that you can either reinvigorate a tired category that hasn\u2019t had a lot of love and bring a fresh perspective to it, or you can, I guess, create a new one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I chose to reinvigorate a dusty space in the store.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, that was the seed of the idea or the kernel of the idea. And yeah, I started from there really, and like you say, took it to my kitchen as an initial first step.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think that\u2019s a brilliant thing about food and drink is that you can start it in your kitchen, you can create the physical product yourself and recipes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And started how I knew how. I started in markets and started selling it at Maltby Street down in south London for a few months just to test the waters. So yeah, a lot of the recipes and things that I created in my kitchen back then still exist today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it was my first, I guess, minimal viable product or basic thing that I could get out the door to get an idea that I had in my brain to have a more lifestyle, flavour-led, innovative brand that was still healthier and better for the planet.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to know your idea is ready for market<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
But what made you think, \u201cOh, lots of people want this.\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because it\u2019s one thing having your own set of needs and your own tastes and making something for yourself, but what was it that gave you the eureka moment, \u201cOh, it\u2019s not just me, it\u2019s loads of people who would love to try something like this.\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, it\u2019s funny that, I think it\u2019s often a few things that inform a gut feel. A gut feel is always something that\u2019s built over time. It\u2019s not just an instant light bulb moment like some people say.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, this particular product and why it was exciting, I think generally there was a rise in protein and there still is that massive protein trend that still exists today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was really starting to kick off, that wellness scene in and around London, but more broadly in the UK.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But also there were other little things happening in the food and drink space where there are things like the sugar levy where they were taxing fizzy drinks, as an example.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, sugar was becoming a lot more demonised, as it should be, but also fats were becoming more accepted, so good fats, that is. So, things like avocados and oils and nuts were becoming things that were being encouraged from a nutritional perspective.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, there was naturally things that were bubbling up on the surface that helped lend itself to nut butter and peanut butter being a trend.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then, I think the funny thing I think is in the food world that we are in at the moment is, I think people are more experimental than they\u2019ve ever been before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think peanut butter has been around for a really long time, but only in the last sort of 10 years have people seen it as something that they could put into their porridge or into their smoothie, could bake with it as opposed to just always having it on toast and always seeing it as something that was unhealthy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I could see it popping up on my social feeds, for instance, in people\u2019s meals and particularly more health-conscious people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it was stuff like that, that I was like, I think there\u2019s a bit of a trend that\u2019s happening in this space, but nobody\u2019s doing it well. The existing incumbent brands haven\u2019t really jumped on this opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then, yeah, I think really that was the point of going to markets. I think it\u2019s a really great thing to test and learn, and one of the best ways of doing that is to literally stand at a market stall and try and sell the product that you\u2019re making.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just got amazing feedback. I think that was the initial validation I needed to take a bigger leap, which was to scale it up. And people would come back time and time again.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would initially get some people posting and I even in those early market days, had people reaching out, like Selfridges saying that they wanted to list the brand. And that was quite organic.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, there was stuff that was coming up when I was testing it that made me think there\u2019s also a bigger opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Of course, you can also look at data, which is, I did look at a little bit of data, but when you\u2019re really starting up, and you\u2019re tiny, you often don\u2019t have any money and so data is an expensive thing to buy, so you have to use more of your cues that you\u2019re seeing in and around the market.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take the time to understand and educate your consumer<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
And was there anything that people said to you, maybe these repeat customers at the market, that got you to change anything about your recipe or about your range?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Looking back, was there anything from that customer interaction that ended up having a big impact later on in the business?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah. I think there were little tweaks that I certainly did. I mean, it was always, I think there were things around some of the flavours that I created, so some don\u2019t exist anymore, but it was certainly that there was an appetite for something more than just a straight-up peanut butter.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I also found it was interesting, it didn\u2019t necessarily change anything, but it certainly informed that gut feel around people not really knowing that palm oil was in a lot of products and certainly all peanut butters at the time in supermarkets contained palm oil.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
As soon as you explained also what palm oil was and why it was perhaps something you wouldn\u2019t necessarily want to choose to eat, that also, there was an \u201caha\u201d moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And again, I guess from a purpose and impact point of view, a reason why your product should exist. And has certainly informed, I think, longer term my passion point around making sure that when we create new products and that all of them have that sustainability and health in mind at the absolute core of what we do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, certainly it gave me that motivation to create a brand that had really good intentions behind it and was looking to, in our specific category at the time, revolutionise the way that people thought that food needed to be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Which was at the time, processed foods were more accepted and actually more natural options were only really just coming into store. And really that was what I wanted to get on board with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, small tweaks, but mainly it was almost like understanding the consumer a bit better and understanding that there was actually a need and a bigger movement that I wanted to tap into.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Make sure to consider the social and environmental impact of your business<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Because that\u2019s really key, isn\u2019t it? Because we\u2019re looking at this perspective now, 2023 and all brands are thinking about their social impact, their environmental impact. It\u2019s a massive deal for all businesses of all shapes and sizes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But back when you were starting, it wasn\u2019t like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What has become a juggernaut was just peeking through.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, do you feel like that\u2019s partially why your brand has grown so swiftly as you were almost ahead of your time in the building blocks, the ethical building blocks that you put in the company from day one?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
100%. I think that really appealed to more discerning shoppers at the time. And I guess, as a result, we use really great quality ingredients. It is a more premium product than what was existing before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it also from a taste perspective was a happy surprise for a lot of people who were used to very either quite bland products or very sweet and sugary and not particularly nice textures.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I think again, it was a combination of the two.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I am a firm believer that people shop by tastes, and when you\u2019re buying a food product, the number one thing you want it to do is taste amazing. And then health and sustainability comes second, maybe third.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I do think you have to win the hearts and mind first through that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think as well from my perspective, I\u2019m always keen to, from a brand positioning point of view, we\u2019re quite a playful brand. We\u2019re not particularly preachy when it comes to health or sustainability.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think that\u2019s a big part of it, which is I want people to really enjoy their food. I want the packaging experience to be a fun one, and I want the product inside to taste amazing. And then almost like an added benefit, it happens to be good for you and that actually we are responsible in the way that we do business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I think it helps you step aside from maybe your competitors and that helps when you\u2019re talking to retailers or that helps when you\u2019re talking to investors, maybe.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But from a consumer point of view, perhaps at the time really taste was the number one and that\u2019s really what helped us fly. And then it was the \u201caha\u201d moment when people learned a bit more about us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Create a distinct identity for your product through its packaging<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Interesting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you mentioned the packaging and the Pip & Nut branding is just so fun and memorable, and it sticks out on the shelf.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How did you achieve that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Especially because you\u2019ve had that branding pretty much the whole way through, so when you were a startup, probably didn\u2019t have a lot of money.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How did you make that amazing design come to life?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah. I mean, that was a really big part of, I think why we\u2019ve been so successful is the fact we have such a distinctive identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it was definitely when I was starting out, I admired brands that have that emotive playfulness and the ability to be able to be a bit more expressive in your tone of voice and your visual world that sits around it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I was really keen that if we don\u2019t have any budget really for marketing, your packaging and your brand has to work 10 times as hard.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I am a believer that if you invest in that initial brand, especially when you\u2019re a food brand, it\u2019s a solid investment, especially if you don\u2019t then change it later down the line.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, whilst it seems extortionate or pretty expensive when you\u2019re looking at investing quite a big chunk of your startup capital in it, I think it\u2019s the best bit of investment that you\u2019ll make in the long term.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I can\u2019t lay claim to it in terms of actually the physical drawing of it. I worked with an amazing agency, and they actually became investors in the business as well, which helped support how I could have such lovely branding, because they helped invest, and they took shares in the business and I got some of the branding pro bono.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And so yeah, it was, I think a really important decision at that really early stage. And it\u2019s paid back, for sure, later down the line.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to land a big supermarket listing<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
And how did you get into the supermarkets?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because we always hear these horror stories from up-and-coming food and drink brand, and they\u2019re like, \u201cBuyers are so busy, they don\u2019t answer the phone, they don\u2019t answer emails.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And yet, you were in Selfridges and Sainsbury\u2019s, I think, within the first couple of years. How did you do that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I don\u2019t know if it helps or makes anyone feel any better, but it doesn\u2019t really get any easier as you get bigger. It is still just as hard sometimes to get in front of buyers, especially when we\u2019re launching new stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, you have to be pretty tenacious and also never take it personally if you don\u2019t get a response because to your point earlier, they\u2019re probably just busy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve got 50 emails that have come in all from different brands trying to sell them something. So, you are one and amongst them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I guess my biggest tip in terms of how do you get into retail and how do you start to build into those bigger retailers, Tesco, Sainsbury\u2019s, Asda, is that you have to prove your case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to try and get evidence points as to why your brand works because if you think about it from their perspective, they\u2019re taking a big risk on you that you aren\u2019t necessarily a safe bet if you get into 400 Sainsbury\u2019s stores.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to be able to give them reassurance that there\u2019s going to be the pull through.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, we did that, I guess, by building the brands slowly at the start. So, winning the likes of Selfridges, winning Whole Foods, creating that test bed, but also starting to raise awareness of the brand in smaller retailers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then using the proof points that we\u2019ve demonstrated in those retailers to then sell it to the next slightly bigger retailer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, then you might talk to Ocado. Ocado then might help you leapfrog into Holland & Barrett. And then Holland & Barrett might lead you to Sainsbury\u2019s. Which was the journey that we took.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think that is a key one, but I have to say sometimes it is just having a good buyer that gets your brand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And Waitrose as an example, that took us seven years to win that listing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It would\u2019ve been my first choice. I would\u2019ve loved to have achieved a Waitrose listing in day one, but it took seven years of knocking on their door despite the fact we had all this success in the wider market for us to eventually land it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And so sometimes it\u2019s persistence. You just have to keep coming back time and time again and know that maybe the next time there might be an opportunity for your brand in store.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, hopefully that might reassure some people who are still trying to get that in from those big retailers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your product is on the shelves, now you have to sell it<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
And what did you do when you were finally stocked in a proper high-street supermarket? Because I can imagine if it was me, I\u2019d be straight in there to the aisle, getting my product out saying, \u201cHey guys, have you tried this?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Did you feel tempted to go and be filling people\u2019s trolleys?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Oh my god, 100%. I mean, I actually remember the email that I got when the buyer confirmed in Sainsbury\u2019s that we got the listing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was three products in 400 stores and that was the big, big listing in Sainsbury\u2019s. And I honestly nearly fell off my seat.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And definitely celebrate those wins because it\u2019s just hard. You might as well celebrate the highs and market.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But for sure, when you get that first listing, firstly making sure that you actually get the stock into store, on time, for the date that they need it, job number one.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But then job number two is, right, it\u2019s in store, how are you going to get it off the shelf? And I think that is when you have to go hell for leather in terms of raising awareness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in those earlier days that could just be using your network to raise awareness and obviously friends, family, everyone that you know, trying to go in and pick up the products and take pictures of your shelves.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But then obviously, you can use wider tactics around social to really start to engage your social community and tell them about your brand being in store.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
As well as using other things in store to help raise awareness, whether that\u2019s doing promotions or trying to get extra feature space in store, which might be those gondolas as an example, to try and get people to see your brand and be as disruptive as possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think that\u2019s where it comes down to having really solid foundations, which you\u2019re building on, which is make sure you\u2019ve tried to build your brand before you get into that big retailer.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, it\u2019s not just this big moment, and you\u2019re launching, and you haven\u2019t done any awareness driving activity from a marketing point of view.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then second is make sure your actual proposition really stands out. Your packaging is clear in terms of one key USP that you\u2019re trying to sell to the consumer. And make sure it\u2019s really, really stand out versus what else is in store.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, if you get those things right, that will really help. And then having the right price point as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Make sure that you know where you\u2019re trying to position yourself and use promotions to not flog it, but to help encourage someone to try it for the first time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if your product is superior, then they should come back time and time again. And that\u2019s how you slowly recruit people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But yeah, day one obviously you go in and take a little selfie in front of the shelf and send it to everyone that you know, to say you finally made it into a supermarket.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is the most amazing feeling, I have to say.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Don\u2019t become obsessed with watching your competitors<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Oh, amazing. And then, so you were the pioneer of this new take on nut butter, but then have you found that rivals have come into the space, and how does that complicate your ability to grow and stand out?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah. I think definitely there are lots of brands that have popped up over the years and certainly keep us hungry in that sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I always think a bit of competition is good, firstly because more people are talking about your category and in our case, obviously peanut butter, there\u2019s lots of people shouting and talking about it and that helps drive the trend and makes consumers aware of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, it\u2019s not always a bad thing that there are other brands that are appearing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But then I think it\u2019s about if you are seeing other brands start to edge in a little bit, it\u2019s about making sure that you do everything to the best of your possible ability.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s obviously all for the consumer, make sure that your product is genuinely the best.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then I think it\u2019s also about making sure that you are doing your job when it comes to marketing, because you can\u2019t pick up or buy a product if you\u2019re not even aware of it in the first instance.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, that\u2019s where using your story, getting press or like I said, social or maybe there might be a bigger activity like events and samplings that you might want to do to help people creep in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think it\u2019s funny because I always get in a bit of a dilemma about this sort of thing around should you watch your competitors? How much to follow and keep an eye on them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And my personal view on it is that just to ignore them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep focus on what your brand stands for. Look forwards instead of backwards because that\u2019s going to help you, I guess, drive forward momentum as opposed to trying to constantly do something or copy someone else to make sure that you\u2019re trying to stay ahead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I find that that creates a better mindset in my mind, and it means that I enjoy it a bit more as well, rather than always comparing and despairing and thinking, \u201cOh god, maybe we need to do this and that to help keep us differentiated.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I follow none of our competitors on social media. We do buy some data, so we know what they\u2019re doing from an overall market perspective, but I don\u2019t really pay attention to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because I think we are a really creative team, we\u2019ve got a really great brand, a great product, we\u2019ve got all the things in front of us that should lead to our success, so let\u2019s focus on us as opposed to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You don\u2019t want to accidentally be influenced as well because something that they might think is a clever marketing ploy or ingredient or something, and it might feel like it\u2019s inspiring you, but actually it might be a wrong decision, it might just lead you astray.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Getting a big listing you can\u2019t afford to stock and how Brexit has affected food businesses<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
So, I totally get what you\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And have there been any disasters along the way, any dark moments in terms of the growth of the brand or your marketing or has anything gone wrong?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Where do I start?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I mean it\u2019s funny, I know I mentioned earlier that amazing moment when you get that email from the buyer being like, \u201cYou got the listing. You\u2019re going into Sainsbury\u2019s.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I remember when I did get that, it was almost the next day when I actually worked out how much that would cost us to buy the stock to send it into those stores and realising that that would mean that we didn\u2019t have enough money basically to pay for that first production.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I remember it being that proper high and then plummeting low as you then try and scrabble around thinking, \u201cHow the hell am I going to actually afford to buy this stock and meet the demand that is suddenly being pulled through?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, that was an interesting one, which meant we had to scrabble around and knock on a few investors\u2019 doors to ask for some help.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But then I think the hardest thing has been, and it\u2019s probably quite consistent if you talk to any food and drink founder in the last five years, it\u2019s been a real brutal environment to exist as a food brand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And certainly, I remember Brexit being an absolute head in hand moment when that got confirmed, because we bought all of our nuts and at the time, some of our products from Europe, and nuts were from America and Argentina, and we were really exposed from a foreign exchange point of view.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just remember seeing the pound just plummet, at points it reached almost parity with the euro and being just devastated because it completely wiped out our margin and all that hard work to get the products there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I was really concerned about what that meant for us as a business long term. It has recovered a bit now, but we\u2019ve had to be really smart in the way that we\u2019ve had to get that back to a better and more healthy place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I think that always sticks out as a really memorable moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think what you learn when you have Brexit, then you have Covid, then you have the Ukraine war and obviously the implications of inflation and cost of living in the last four years, is that this is just what food and drink is, and you just have to learn how to be resilient and build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m quite an optimistic person, so I always tend to round up instead of down.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And so it\u2019s helpful, I think, having people around you that maybe aren\u2019t the quite same mindset to help balance you out and try to be slightly more, it sounds not very fun, but sometimes a bit more prudent in the way that you might plan.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whether it\u2019s for marketing investment and things like that, so that you\u2019re not exposed every time that there\u2019s a shift in the macroeconomic space.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I think you learn to ride the waves and really some of those awful moments, like I said, Brexit or when you, I don\u2019t know, do a faulty packaging run, and you realise that everything that you printed is wrong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019s happened before as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You learn that duck out of water feeling, you are less reactive every time something bad happens because you know that this is just something that you have to manage, if that makes sense?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, there are not many things that keep me up at night now because I think we\u2019ve been through probably some of the worst years that I hope that we experience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Try and keep six months\u2019 worth of cash in the business at all times<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, fingers crossed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But what about cash buffers then? Do you try and always make sure you have a certain amount of cash in the business, enough to cover salaries for X number of months or is that impossible on your margins?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
No, absolutely, we always try and keep at least six months\u2019 runway in front of us. And now look at being profitable as a business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I think in the early days though, you are sometimes hand to mouth, and you are literally watching every pound that comes in, and you chase everyone to pay you, and you are really careful about what you invest in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I used to be so frugal when I was managing it. There is nothing more awakening when you see the cash in the bank. So, keeping really close to it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then now as a team, we\u2019re still a really small business, I have a mantra of treat every penny like your own. And I tell my team that because you want everyone to feel there\u2019s that kind of care and attention to the business as you do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, and making sure you don\u2019t get above your station and think that you will be comfortable when you get a little bit bigger because yeah, there can be shockwaves that happen down the line that you just can\u2019t predict.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The best way to learn is to dive in head first<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yes. And the last few years are definitely testament to that advice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you had never started a business before Pip & Nut, and yet you\u2019ve made such a success of this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, how have you learned the practical skills about growing a business, like reading accounts? Did you teach yourself all of that? Did you have people you could turn to, to help you with that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah. The thing that I actually love most about it is when you learn something new. And I love throwing myself in when you don\u2019t really know anything. You don\u2019t know what all the acronyms are, and you have to figure it all out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
For me, it\u2019s like this amazing puzzle that I want to solve. So, I really thrive in those moments.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But yeah, I mean I did everything from a basic accountancy course just so I understood what a balance sheet was, which is definitely not my passion point, but it\u2019s good to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But to be honest, I think a lot of it comes from learning through doing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Some of it\u2019s quite practical. The first time you work out how to pitch to a retailer, you\u2019re learning a lot, and you ask industry friends or peers to be able to share a bit of how they might do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And also, get yourself a mentor. I think they can help coach you and teach you what you need to know. And then before you know it, you\u2019re off, and you\u2019re sailing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then I find now it\u2019s like I\u2019ve got a really great team, there\u2019s about 25 of us in the business, and I\u2019ve got people that I learn from them now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, it\u2019s great, you get those experts in and then suddenly they transform your business in different ways, and you just learn with them as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I think yeah, it\u2019s being a bit humble and being open with what you don\u2019t know and just saying it how it is and asking the question. And not being afraid of that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Even now I\u2019ll ask some of my team when I don\u2019t know something like what the answer is. And I don\u2019t feel embarrassed about it because we\u2019re all on a journey and nobody\u2019s an expert in everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, there\u2019s always going to be gaps in your knowledge and that\u2019s why you have great people around you. And it\u2019s also in some ways why it\u2019s a good thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sometimes you don\u2019t always assume that things have to be done a certain way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, take it as a strength as much as also something that you might need to continually develop yourself over the journey.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I love that, to keep refining, because if you keep asking the question, you might keep getting a new perspective, and you might find a better way of doing something and making a tiny improvement.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Find mentors that can fill in the specific gaps in your knowledge<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
And I love your attitude towards mentors, and you\u2019ve mentioned mentors being useful, and I\u2019m sure I\u2019ve read you quoting David Hieatt from Hiut Denim, he was on the show last season, we loved him, but was he a mentor?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do you find great mentors?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I wish. If you can link me in with him, he is my pin-up startup founder. So yeah, I love him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019ll link you up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Thank you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How do you find them? I think asking around is a good place to start.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
When I was starting out there, I did look at, who are the brands that I were like, they are just flying and just loved what they were doing? And who, therefore, is running them and\/or founded them depending on what stage they\u2019re at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s how I came across my mentor, and now he\u2019s our investor as well, a guy called Giles Brook, who ran at the time Vita Coco and also worked on another brand called Bear.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And yeah, I literally just emailed him and I did that with quite a few people. Some people I just asked for advice and some people like him, I approached in a more concerted way and said, \u201cWould you be open to mentoring me and potentially investing later down the line?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it works really well, I think, when you find somebody that is certainly ahead of the game and more experienced than you, but not too big in business that they can\u2019t really apply their learnings, or they don\u2019t get that you need to be scrappy and that\u2019s okay in those early days.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, finding the appropriate sized, been there, done it person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And ideally depending on your background, I think it\u2019s all about, in my case, I didn\u2019t have any food and drink experience, so I needed someone who did.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Some people might find that they just want marketing experience, and therefore they find someone that\u2019s an expert in marketing, but it doesn\u2019t need to be in that sector.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I think it\u2019s about knowing what are your gaps and therefore, what do you need to fill through advice?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing with mentoring, it\u2019s like, I found over the years is it\u2019s not to say that everyone will need to invest in your business to give you advice. I think you can go for lots of coffees and get advice informally.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you really want lots of coaching, and you want to maybe have models shared with you or templates, whatever it is, if you want more hands on, I think it has to also be potentially something for them as well. Otherwise, they won\u2019t maybe be as open and sharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, I\u2019m not saying that everyone has to give away necessarily equity, but that is one route. Or you could look at a NED structure where you actually pay someone for their time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think before you do any of that, do test the water and get a feel for each other. Is it something that you\u2019re both enjoying? So, that\u2019s the case I think for more mentoring that I\u2019ve found.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously even my team, we link up with other fellow brands, some of my team members have mentors in other businesses and that\u2019s just a nice informal relationship where both people are hopefully getting something from the conversation. Yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Build a sustainable brand that helps combat climate change<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah. And you\u2019ve come such a long way as a brand, but where next, what is the next mountain to climb for you guys?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Yeah. So, lots of things really. I guess, Pip & Nut, we started with nut butter and that has been our heartland for the last eight years. Been living and breathing it and still will obviously over the next few years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But really, I think Pip & Nut, anything nuts is really an opportunity for us. And I guess, our reason for being is that we want to create products that are healthier, less processed, natural and sustainable as well as obviously delicious.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, really that leads us into lots of different avenues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, we\u2019ve got our range of nut butter cups at the moment, and we\u2019re launching a new range in Q1 next year. So, that\u2019s coming out soon.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, innovation is a big part of, I guess what we\u2019re going to be working on over the next few years to hopefully, I guess bring our brand into different moments in people\u2019s lives but also grow as a business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then we\u2019re also looking a little bit at international, but to be honest, focusing a lot on the UK because there\u2019s just so much opportunity just here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then, I guess from a personal point of view, I recently actually became a trustee of B Lab, which are the charity that\u2019s behind B Corp. So, B Corp is a really big passion point of mine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really thinking about, given all the things that we\u2019re seeing in the press at the moment, the climate issues, how as a business, we can genuinely lead by example and do as much as we possibly can to minimise our impact.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think this is for me, that new learning wave where all the time learning different things about carbon, whether that\u2019s net-zero, carbon neutrality or working out how can we grow nuts in a more regenerative way?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Those are all things that we\u2019re trialling at the moment and investing in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So again, that\u2019s a really interesting part of the brand and how we\u2019re building it behind the scenes to make sure that I guess, in the future our brand isn\u2019t taking from the planet but hopefully enhancing it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, that\u2019s a second thread that\u2019s really interesting for me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
Do you think that the climate change issues are so much more real to you because you are exposed as a business who sources nuts from all over the world, South America, America, you feel it maybe more than someone that\u2019s insulated from what\u2019s going on or just sees it on the news?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually can almost see it in the figures on your balance sheet. You can hear it in the voices of farmers that supply you. It\u2019s different for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pip Murray:<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
100%. You have that extra step closer to the source. And I think any food is grown either in the ground or on a tree, that is in an environment that will be in a climate and therefore, it will be in some form, or another impacted and so you can\u2019t ignore it. You just absolutely can\u2019t.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And actually, weirdly, what I find really motivating is that whilst I know the news can be pretty depressing at the moment and pretty horrific for people that are actually in those countries that are having such big heatwaves and fires and things like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But that actually I\u2019ve got the opportunity through my brand to actually do some positive action and I actually find that highly motivating.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas I know sometimes it can feel a bit like, oh, what\u2019s the point of just turning off the light switch? It\u2019s not going to make a difference anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But actually changing on a bigger scale how our brand works, removing bits of virgin plastic from our supply chain genuinely has an impact.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I find that really satisfying and I think my team do as well because you see it immediately helping and improving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, it\u2019s actually for me, a bit more empowering than it is scary in that sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this small business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
We are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Join our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageIreland<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Want to know more about Pip Murray or Pip & Nut?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Pip on her LinkedIn<\/a> or Instagram<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
For more on Pip & Nut, check out their website<\/a> or drop them a follow-on Instagram<\/a> or X<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n \n
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- How to know your idea is ready for market<\/a><\/li>\n\n\n\n