Removing gatekeepers has made personal branding accessible to all<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nMaybe you can start by telling us why it\u2019s now so important that founders, and business leaders think about personal brand. Why is it so relevant now? Why should this be a priority for our listeners?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s always been important, but the issue is that it\u2019s always been gatekept. So if you are a founder running a business, being a voice for that business and being well-known in your industry is always going to help with driving business and creating growth and opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But the ways that you would be that voice 20 years ago, where you\u2019d need to write a book or be featured in a magazine or featured on a radio or public speaking event, are very different from now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The idea of social media didn\u2019t exist, and all those other mediums were gate kept by somebody else. You had to know an event organiser to ask you to do the event and you had to know a journalist to write about you to get into a publication.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas now you can create a LinkedIn account, or an Instagram account and you own the platform.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You decide everything with it, and the power has gone to the individual now, and we\u2019ve seen this across a ridiculous number of industries like music, sports athletes, influencers, YouTubers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
This idea of people being able to be a voice where they couldn\u2019t before because the gates aren\u2019t kept by people now, it is down to us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think that happened first and foremost around probably the early adopters. People like Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s been leveraging social media for 15 years now, and he was kind of very early to it and understanding it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then when we started working on Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand, that was in like 2015 and we were really early in terms of the UK and an entrepreneur leveraging social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then now you\u2019ve seen a lot more founders and entrepreneurs start to dip their toes in the water over the past few years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s been a bit of a trend of it happening. And I think it\u2019s like the S curve and there comes a point where everybody knows about it now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s not like when I started Great Influence 6 years ago, I had to go tell people about the idea of doing this, that it was a good idea for a founder to be using social media in a certain way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s not the case anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019ve now got the biggest companies in the world at board level talking about how the group CEO or their leadership team should be more visible online as a voice of the company. Those conversations are happening at every level of business now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think it was just a matter of social media unlocking the door and now we\u2019re seeing everybody not only know that it exists but know that they have to be doing it in some way, shape, or form as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve been doing this for a decade now, and at the start, you had the startups leveraging it and startup founders in this country.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Steven Bartlett is one of them, maybe like Alan Barratt at Grenade was somebody who leveraged social media in the early days of Grenade.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it was the thing the startups did, and then the scale-ups do it and then the corporate companies do it and the group CEOs do it. It just climbs its way up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I feel like personal branding now is at a point where everybody not only is aware of it and understands it, but they know the importance of it and where it fits in terms of priorities within business and having to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s nothing new to it. The art has been around for decades and has been leveraged by the smartest people in industries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the past looked like having a book rather than having a LinkedIn account. So I think the barriers being removed for people has naturally meant it\u2019s more accessible to people, therefore more people do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I think it\u2019s that that\u2019s kind of driven it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Relationship building is now happening offline and online<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAs well as removing the gatekeepers. And forgive me if I\u2019m wrong, but it feels like there\u2019s been a real blurring between the professional self and the personal self.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the person that you see today who\u2019s talking about their business, you might not hear about their families.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Even it was 10 years ago, you might not hear about their families, what sports they do, their heartbreaks, whereas now it feels like everyone is talking about authenticity, which also means the kind of transparency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think people are showing a lot more of themselves as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think again, it was something that was always happening, it\u2019s just that element of it was happening offline.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how relationships were built were typically offline and it wouldn\u2019t be strange for you to have a meeting with somebody in a business context.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019ve literally just had a meeting now and we spoke for an hour and a half about all things business, marketing, personal brand, and then at the end of the meeting she said, \u201cI\u2019m a fan of Metallica.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was like, \u201cMe too.\u201d And we start talking about heavy metal bands and going to festivals and stuff like this. And that\u2019s what happens in business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It starts off in a business context and then you start learning more about the individual and the other elements of them as a person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019s always been happening in your business offline, whereas now it\u2019s starting to happen online where people are bringing that element of themselves in some way, shape or form to the online piece.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And again, it plays the exact same role. It\u2019s relationship building with people and it\u2019s about giving people a rounded version of who you are as a person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there has been a trend towards it online in the last few years, but its forever happened offline and it\u2019s how relationships are really built and developed in business, I think.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Define your goals to help build your personal brand<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd I guess those conversations that you have that develop naturally when you\u2019re at a meeting or you\u2019re in the room with someone, that feels very easy, building a personal brand feels more intentional.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how do you start with that particular project? What do you begin with? Because it doesn\u2019t just happen on its own as a result of a conversation, you have to start somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think for me, I always start at what outcomes are you trying to create from doing it? What are the specific business and career outcomes that you\u2019re trying to generate? And that looks different for everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019ve found, through working with a lot of different people in different industries at different stages of their career and business growth, they\u2019re all trying to outcome different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But understanding what those outcomes are, like for somebody, say you are a founder who\u2019s in the first year of the business, you\u2019re responsible probably for the majority of the growth and opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your network, it\u2019s your intros, you are driving the sales, you are driving the hiring, you\u2019re driving everything. And knowing, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m responsible for bringing customers or sales or the hires in.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So being very clear on what the outcomes are means that you can reverse engineer how you make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think when people lose sight of the outcome they\u2019re trying to generate, that\u2019s when they end up doing things that aren\u2019t right for them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it\u2019s very easy now to turn up on social media and grow an audience talking about anything. And really we\u2019re in business, we\u2019re all looking for some kind of opportunity that we\u2019re trying to create from doing this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you\u2019re going to put time and resource and effort and energy into something, there has to be an ROI.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think being very intentionally clear about what that ROI is that you\u2019re looking to get, kind of leads you to what steps you should be taking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you\u2019re somebody who\u2019s like I say, a founder in year one, responsible for driving all the sales, you really need to be doing a few things online to generate that to happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a few things that you don\u2019t need to do. They would be nice to have, but you don\u2019t need to do them to get to the outcome that you\u2019re trying to generate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And from my experience, everyone\u2019s path is different. So there is no, \u201cHere\u2019s a personal brand strategy, apply it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s very down to the individual and then you work backwards to build the plan, which makes it a bit difficult because it is very bespoke, but if you figure out what it is, you\u2019re able to generate it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a lot of people approach personal branding a bit of a laissez-faire way, and they never end up getting the opportunity that they\u2019re looking for because the execution isn\u2019t geared towards making the opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Learn what you\u2019re comfortable sharing with your audience<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut there\u2019s a tension here, isn\u2019t there? Because if for example, the outcome that you are aiming for is to increase sales to your business, then it\u2019s quite hard to do that on social media without turning everyone off because no one likes to be sold to, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But at the same time, then you wouldn\u2019t be posting pictures of your dog or the view of the river on the way to work in the morning because that isn\u2019t technically working towards your outcome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how do you navigate that I guess grey area between this is my authentic self and I want you to buy my product.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think on selling to people, it\u2019s selling without selling.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take me for example, I run a personal branding agency and the way that I can help the agency get clients is to be somebody who talks about personal brand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I never really say \u201cGreat Influence does this or we do that.\u201d I just talk about personal brand as a subject. And by doing that, it tends to mean further down the line conversations happen that can turn into business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I\u2019ve never really directly sold the work that we do and what we do, I more just talk around the subject of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think there\u2019s an art to selling without selling and thought leadership is a big part of that. And then the second aspect is do you bring the personality and personal side into it in some sense? And I think it\u2019s a very personal choice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s undoubtedly some benefits from bringing personal elements of who you are into doing this because it helps you to foster and build relationships and build connection with people that they can resonate to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there\u2019s a pressure now to do it that maybe didn\u2019t exist before because a lot more people are doing it. I don\u2019t think that people have to buckle to that pressure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think the trick to all of this is doing something that you\u2019re really comfortable with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me personally, I try to show up online for the sake of the business. And there\u2019s things I\u2019m not comfortable sharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
For example, professionally for the past 3 months, Great Influence has been amazing. But my personal life has been a mess for the past 3 months. But I\u2019m not choosing to bring that online because I\u2019m not comfortable talking about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If I was, I maybe would figure out how I talk about it, what\u2019s right to talk about and how does it relate to the people that I\u2019m speaking to into the world that I\u2019m sitting in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think you have to be comfortable with what you are doing with the execution of what you\u2019re doing. And the minute that you start doing things you\u2019re not comfortable with is the minute that you lose the consistency that you have to put in to make it all happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I mean, it\u2019s never say never. I\u2019ve seen people go on a journey with this that we\u2019ve worked with and they\u2019ve naturally over time become more confident, more comfortable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They naturally start talking about things wider than they initially started in the first place and their personal lives and all that kind of thing does come into it at times, and they grow the confidence to do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I just think it\u2019s very much about understanding what you are comfortable with and coupling that with the outcomes that you\u2019re trying to achieve and going, \u201cRight, okay, given what I\u2019m trying to achieve and what I can do and what I\u2019m comfortable with, what\u2019s the execution that ticks those 3 boxes?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you figure out that the consistency part becomes really easy. And I think one of the struggles with personal brand is consistency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
People can have spurts and moments where they\u2019re very active and they feel on it and all these things, and then all of a sudden, it\u2019s been 2, 3, 4 weeks and they\u2019ve fallen out of the rhythm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it\u2019s because they haven\u2019t found that almost like trifecta and ticking the right boxes. And then I found that the people that do, consistency becomes very easy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Post on social media with stakeholder management in mind<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nIt\u2019s really great to hear you, an expert be so pragmatic and sort of tackle these issues because I do feel there\u2019s a lot of pressure to overshare and to share the bad stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in fact, we\u2019ve had guests on this show whose businesses were really struggling and then, it was the founder of White Rabbit Skincare.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
She went on Instagram and basically kind of had her breakdown in public saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to have to close my business. I\u2019ve been throwing everything into this for the last few years and I can\u2019t do it anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the response was enormous. She sold out within 24 hours every product she had went. But then she might feel pressured to keep sharing those kind of moments and sometimes maybe it\u2019ll feel to her like it\u2019s oversharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think that\u2019s really hard for founders to know where to draw those boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nThe issue is that you\u2019re not someone with no responsibilities. You\u2019ve really got to bring into the picture the idea of stakeholder management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The majority of people doing this in a business context have at least 1 person who it matters what they say, and it impacts the other person involved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whether you\u2019re a freelancer and you have a client, you\u2019ve got to think about what you\u2019re saying through how the client perceives it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Or you are the CEO of a 500-person company and you\u2019ve got investors, you\u2019ve got employees, you\u2019ve got partners, you\u2019ve got suppliers. There\u2019s all those kind of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So stakeholder management really does have to come into the pitch with this. And you have to know the balance of, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m comfortable sharing something that\u2019s a bit personal or a bit revealing of the business. How do I do that in the best way given the idea of stakeholder management? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with our team? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with the investors?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is a bit of a complex thing to do. And I\u2019ve seen a couple of instances. I literally saw one this morning of the founder of a fashion brand and she was essentially saying, \u201cI can\u2019t do this anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in my head, I was thinking, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the best thing for you to say. There\u2019s a way to say what you want to say, but you\u2019ve just got to package it in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because what you\u2019ve just posted, yes, a bunch of people on social that follow you and your audience are going to see it, but your team is going to see it and your leadership team is going to see it and your investors are going to see it and what confidence does it give them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes, you\u2019re going through a moment, and they\u2019ll know that you\u2019re going through a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the problem isn\u2019t sharing the moment and being honest and vulnerable if that\u2019s what you want to do. But it\u2019s just being a bit smarter about how you package what you\u2019re saying for it to land in the right way and to balance this idea of stakeholder management in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I get it because business is a very emotional thing, and if you\u2019ve got a voice online, you naturally feel a gravitational pull towards speaking, it helps you. It\u2019s cathartic in a sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I completely understand it, but I do think there is an element of, you\u2019ve got to toe the line and you\u2019ve got to be careful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s about being very tactical. I feel like personal branding in business is very, very, very tactical. Everything has to be thought out, it\u2019s intentional because of those reasons that I just spoke about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sleep on it before sharing something vulnerable<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo would you say if someone is having a moment like that or they would naturally take to social media and say, this is the worst day or something that you should always sit on it for a day? I mean, what\u2019s the best advice when it comes to hitting the pause button in those moments of stress?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I\u2019ve felt it personally. Like I\u2019ve been there, I\u2019ve written the post and then I\u2019ve just sat on it for a couple of days, and I\u2019ve realised that essentially, I just needed to journal a little.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then if I want to take something and share it and I think, \u201cOh, this could actually be quite valuable.\u201d I\u2019ll go back to the journal and figure out what of that is private and what is not private.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I\u2019d say anything that you think is going to be a vulnerability, it\u2019s always worth sitting on it for a couple of days as nothing is ever immediate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then also it\u2019s worth getting somebody else\u2019s outlook on what you\u2019ve said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you trust somebody, run it by them and just sense check things because I think it\u2019s very easy nowadays to just to fire off a thought because you literally just open your phone and press post, you can do it in 15 seconds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that comes with a danger of, especially a lot of entrepreneurs can be quite impulsive and it kind of plays into that. It\u2019s very easy to be impulsive and just shoot something off and then not even think about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And yeah, unfortunately, we\u2019re in a world where your actions tend to have consequences. And I don\u2019t say that to put people off the idea of personal branding, it\u2019s just the reality and there\u2019s great pros and opportunity that come from doing this, but there\u2019s also great cons that come with it as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve got to find the balance between the two. And for me, the idea of personal brand, if you\u2019re in business, it\u2019s the number one most important thing because it feeds everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So that\u2019s the level of importance and ROI and opportunity that you can create from it. There\u2019s a reason why the people at the top of the game are investing so much into this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Like Steven Bartlett has a team, and he spends the majority of his time doing personal brand because it feeds literally everything across his entire business life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you also have to get the balance of knowing the potential pitfalls of what you\u2019re getting into and finding the line with things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I find that the majority of people know where the line is themselves and it\u2019s just making yourself aware and sense checking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Everyone has to start their personal brand journey from zero<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYou mentioned Steven there, we have to ask, how did you end up working together? Tell me a bit about that partnership and how you\u2019ve helped him to become, I mean we can say super brand. He\u2019s a super brand today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I met him in 2012 when he just dropped out of university. He famously did one lecture and dropped out and he had a business idea, and I met him at an event that had nothing to do with business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And we had a mutual friend, and I was about to go to university for 3 years and I wanted to do something else alongside studying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A mutual friend introduced us, Steve was 18, and he said, \u201cOh, Steven\u2019s doing something to do with business.\u201d And we spoke. And then yeah, I started working with him on this idea that he had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that idea took around 2 years to work on. And then that led to Social Chain, which was the agency that he built. And I became part of the founding team at Social Chain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And my job at first was Marketing Director at Social Chain, so I was trying to help the agency market itself and build awareness in the industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that very quickly pivoted to me building\/working on Steve\u2019s personal brand, as we realised that was the best way for Social Chain to drive business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He wasn\u2019t doing personal branding at the time. He started by just doing public speaking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the first year of Social Chain he was doing small events to 15, 20 people. And whenever he did them, it always drove business opportunities for us in a big way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So we sat down at the end of the first year in 2015 and me and Steve had been speaking about something along the lines of making content for a couple of years before that, we just never had a reason to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And now there was a really clear reason to because Social Chain would benefit from it massively. And then that journey started.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was like, \u201cRight, okay, let\u2019s figure this out and start from the ground up.\u201d And I\u2019ve spent 4 years going on that journey with him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the result is Diary Of A CEO.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, it is crazy to think of the journey that he\u2019s gone on. And the interesting thing is, when we sat down to film something for the first time, where we started was video content and we\u2019d film videos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when we sat down for the first time to do it was a 2-and-a-half-minute video and it took 7 hours. He just couldn\u2019t, he knew what he wanted to say, but he\u2019d never done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he was stumbling over his words, we were going over it time and time again, and he was a bit in his own head, overthinking things and all this kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at him now, 10 years later, he\u2019s so incredibly well-versed at the art of being a speaker in different formats and mediums, but it wasn\u2019t always the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally sat in the room for 7 hours to get a 2-minute video, whereas if you ask Steven Bartlett to do a 2-minute video now he does it in one take. There is no second take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there were 50 takes of our first video. So it speaks to the fact that everybody starts somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think again, part of the pressure is that in business, we don\u2019t want people to see us starting from zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But with your personal brand, you don\u2019t have any choice but to be publicly starting from zero, you can\u2019t do it in private, you have to go out into the world and do it in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And unfortunately, you\u2019re starting from zero. And I think people have a big difficulty about their professional network seeing them not be good at something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you have to let people see you not be good at it so you can get good at it. And I think that\u2019s a bit of a barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So whenever I talk about Steve, I always try to use that story of how he started exactly where everybody has to start, at zero. He was just willing to not be good in public for a while to learn how to be good in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Master the psychology of personal branding<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Maybe you can start by telling us why it\u2019s now so important that founders, and business leaders think about personal brand. Why is it so relevant now? Why should this be a priority for our listeners?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s always been important, but the issue is that it\u2019s always been gatekept. So if you are a founder running a business, being a voice for that business and being well-known in your industry is always going to help with driving business and creating growth and opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But the ways that you would be that voice 20 years ago, where you\u2019d need to write a book or be featured in a magazine or featured on a radio or public speaking event, are very different from now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The idea of social media didn\u2019t exist, and all those other mediums were gate kept by somebody else. You had to know an event organiser to ask you to do the event and you had to know a journalist to write about you to get into a publication.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas now you can create a LinkedIn account, or an Instagram account and you own the platform.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You decide everything with it, and the power has gone to the individual now, and we\u2019ve seen this across a ridiculous number of industries like music, sports athletes, influencers, YouTubers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
This idea of people being able to be a voice where they couldn\u2019t before because the gates aren\u2019t kept by people now, it is down to us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think that happened first and foremost around probably the early adopters. People like Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s been leveraging social media for 15 years now, and he was kind of very early to it and understanding it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then when we started working on Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand, that was in like 2015 and we were really early in terms of the UK and an entrepreneur leveraging social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then now you\u2019ve seen a lot more founders and entrepreneurs start to dip their toes in the water over the past few years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s been a bit of a trend of it happening. And I think it\u2019s like the S curve and there comes a point where everybody knows about it now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s not like when I started Great Influence 6 years ago, I had to go tell people about the idea of doing this, that it was a good idea for a founder to be using social media in a certain way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s not the case anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019ve now got the biggest companies in the world at board level talking about how the group CEO or their leadership team should be more visible online as a voice of the company. Those conversations are happening at every level of business now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think it was just a matter of social media unlocking the door and now we\u2019re seeing everybody not only know that it exists but know that they have to be doing it in some way, shape, or form as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve been doing this for a decade now, and at the start, you had the startups leveraging it and startup founders in this country.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Steven Bartlett is one of them, maybe like Alan Barratt at Grenade was somebody who leveraged social media in the early days of Grenade.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it was the thing the startups did, and then the scale-ups do it and then the corporate companies do it and the group CEOs do it. It just climbs its way up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I feel like personal branding now is at a point where everybody not only is aware of it and understands it, but they know the importance of it and where it fits in terms of priorities within business and having to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s nothing new to it. The art has been around for decades and has been leveraged by the smartest people in industries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the past looked like having a book rather than having a LinkedIn account. So I think the barriers being removed for people has naturally meant it\u2019s more accessible to people, therefore more people do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I think it\u2019s that that\u2019s kind of driven it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Relationship building is now happening offline and online<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAs well as removing the gatekeepers. And forgive me if I\u2019m wrong, but it feels like there\u2019s been a real blurring between the professional self and the personal self.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the person that you see today who\u2019s talking about their business, you might not hear about their families.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Even it was 10 years ago, you might not hear about their families, what sports they do, their heartbreaks, whereas now it feels like everyone is talking about authenticity, which also means the kind of transparency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think people are showing a lot more of themselves as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think again, it was something that was always happening, it\u2019s just that element of it was happening offline.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how relationships were built were typically offline and it wouldn\u2019t be strange for you to have a meeting with somebody in a business context.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019ve literally just had a meeting now and we spoke for an hour and a half about all things business, marketing, personal brand, and then at the end of the meeting she said, \u201cI\u2019m a fan of Metallica.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was like, \u201cMe too.\u201d And we start talking about heavy metal bands and going to festivals and stuff like this. And that\u2019s what happens in business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It starts off in a business context and then you start learning more about the individual and the other elements of them as a person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019s always been happening in your business offline, whereas now it\u2019s starting to happen online where people are bringing that element of themselves in some way, shape or form to the online piece.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And again, it plays the exact same role. It\u2019s relationship building with people and it\u2019s about giving people a rounded version of who you are as a person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there has been a trend towards it online in the last few years, but its forever happened offline and it\u2019s how relationships are really built and developed in business, I think.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Define your goals to help build your personal brand<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd I guess those conversations that you have that develop naturally when you\u2019re at a meeting or you\u2019re in the room with someone, that feels very easy, building a personal brand feels more intentional.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how do you start with that particular project? What do you begin with? Because it doesn\u2019t just happen on its own as a result of a conversation, you have to start somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think for me, I always start at what outcomes are you trying to create from doing it? What are the specific business and career outcomes that you\u2019re trying to generate? And that looks different for everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019ve found, through working with a lot of different people in different industries at different stages of their career and business growth, they\u2019re all trying to outcome different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But understanding what those outcomes are, like for somebody, say you are a founder who\u2019s in the first year of the business, you\u2019re responsible probably for the majority of the growth and opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your network, it\u2019s your intros, you are driving the sales, you are driving the hiring, you\u2019re driving everything. And knowing, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m responsible for bringing customers or sales or the hires in.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So being very clear on what the outcomes are means that you can reverse engineer how you make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think when people lose sight of the outcome they\u2019re trying to generate, that\u2019s when they end up doing things that aren\u2019t right for them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it\u2019s very easy now to turn up on social media and grow an audience talking about anything. And really we\u2019re in business, we\u2019re all looking for some kind of opportunity that we\u2019re trying to create from doing this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you\u2019re going to put time and resource and effort and energy into something, there has to be an ROI.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think being very intentionally clear about what that ROI is that you\u2019re looking to get, kind of leads you to what steps you should be taking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you\u2019re somebody who\u2019s like I say, a founder in year one, responsible for driving all the sales, you really need to be doing a few things online to generate that to happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a few things that you don\u2019t need to do. They would be nice to have, but you don\u2019t need to do them to get to the outcome that you\u2019re trying to generate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And from my experience, everyone\u2019s path is different. So there is no, \u201cHere\u2019s a personal brand strategy, apply it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s very down to the individual and then you work backwards to build the plan, which makes it a bit difficult because it is very bespoke, but if you figure out what it is, you\u2019re able to generate it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a lot of people approach personal branding a bit of a laissez-faire way, and they never end up getting the opportunity that they\u2019re looking for because the execution isn\u2019t geared towards making the opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Learn what you\u2019re comfortable sharing with your audience<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut there\u2019s a tension here, isn\u2019t there? Because if for example, the outcome that you are aiming for is to increase sales to your business, then it\u2019s quite hard to do that on social media without turning everyone off because no one likes to be sold to, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But at the same time, then you wouldn\u2019t be posting pictures of your dog or the view of the river on the way to work in the morning because that isn\u2019t technically working towards your outcome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how do you navigate that I guess grey area between this is my authentic self and I want you to buy my product.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think on selling to people, it\u2019s selling without selling.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take me for example, I run a personal branding agency and the way that I can help the agency get clients is to be somebody who talks about personal brand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I never really say \u201cGreat Influence does this or we do that.\u201d I just talk about personal brand as a subject. And by doing that, it tends to mean further down the line conversations happen that can turn into business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I\u2019ve never really directly sold the work that we do and what we do, I more just talk around the subject of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think there\u2019s an art to selling without selling and thought leadership is a big part of that. And then the second aspect is do you bring the personality and personal side into it in some sense? And I think it\u2019s a very personal choice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s undoubtedly some benefits from bringing personal elements of who you are into doing this because it helps you to foster and build relationships and build connection with people that they can resonate to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there\u2019s a pressure now to do it that maybe didn\u2019t exist before because a lot more people are doing it. I don\u2019t think that people have to buckle to that pressure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think the trick to all of this is doing something that you\u2019re really comfortable with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me personally, I try to show up online for the sake of the business. And there\u2019s things I\u2019m not comfortable sharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
For example, professionally for the past 3 months, Great Influence has been amazing. But my personal life has been a mess for the past 3 months. But I\u2019m not choosing to bring that online because I\u2019m not comfortable talking about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If I was, I maybe would figure out how I talk about it, what\u2019s right to talk about and how does it relate to the people that I\u2019m speaking to into the world that I\u2019m sitting in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think you have to be comfortable with what you are doing with the execution of what you\u2019re doing. And the minute that you start doing things you\u2019re not comfortable with is the minute that you lose the consistency that you have to put in to make it all happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I mean, it\u2019s never say never. I\u2019ve seen people go on a journey with this that we\u2019ve worked with and they\u2019ve naturally over time become more confident, more comfortable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They naturally start talking about things wider than they initially started in the first place and their personal lives and all that kind of thing does come into it at times, and they grow the confidence to do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I just think it\u2019s very much about understanding what you are comfortable with and coupling that with the outcomes that you\u2019re trying to achieve and going, \u201cRight, okay, given what I\u2019m trying to achieve and what I can do and what I\u2019m comfortable with, what\u2019s the execution that ticks those 3 boxes?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you figure out that the consistency part becomes really easy. And I think one of the struggles with personal brand is consistency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
People can have spurts and moments where they\u2019re very active and they feel on it and all these things, and then all of a sudden, it\u2019s been 2, 3, 4 weeks and they\u2019ve fallen out of the rhythm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it\u2019s because they haven\u2019t found that almost like trifecta and ticking the right boxes. And then I found that the people that do, consistency becomes very easy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Post on social media with stakeholder management in mind<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nIt\u2019s really great to hear you, an expert be so pragmatic and sort of tackle these issues because I do feel there\u2019s a lot of pressure to overshare and to share the bad stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in fact, we\u2019ve had guests on this show whose businesses were really struggling and then, it was the founder of White Rabbit Skincare.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
She went on Instagram and basically kind of had her breakdown in public saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to have to close my business. I\u2019ve been throwing everything into this for the last few years and I can\u2019t do it anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the response was enormous. She sold out within 24 hours every product she had went. But then she might feel pressured to keep sharing those kind of moments and sometimes maybe it\u2019ll feel to her like it\u2019s oversharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think that\u2019s really hard for founders to know where to draw those boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nThe issue is that you\u2019re not someone with no responsibilities. You\u2019ve really got to bring into the picture the idea of stakeholder management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The majority of people doing this in a business context have at least 1 person who it matters what they say, and it impacts the other person involved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whether you\u2019re a freelancer and you have a client, you\u2019ve got to think about what you\u2019re saying through how the client perceives it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Or you are the CEO of a 500-person company and you\u2019ve got investors, you\u2019ve got employees, you\u2019ve got partners, you\u2019ve got suppliers. There\u2019s all those kind of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So stakeholder management really does have to come into the pitch with this. And you have to know the balance of, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m comfortable sharing something that\u2019s a bit personal or a bit revealing of the business. How do I do that in the best way given the idea of stakeholder management? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with our team? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with the investors?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is a bit of a complex thing to do. And I\u2019ve seen a couple of instances. I literally saw one this morning of the founder of a fashion brand and she was essentially saying, \u201cI can\u2019t do this anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in my head, I was thinking, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the best thing for you to say. There\u2019s a way to say what you want to say, but you\u2019ve just got to package it in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because what you\u2019ve just posted, yes, a bunch of people on social that follow you and your audience are going to see it, but your team is going to see it and your leadership team is going to see it and your investors are going to see it and what confidence does it give them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes, you\u2019re going through a moment, and they\u2019ll know that you\u2019re going through a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the problem isn\u2019t sharing the moment and being honest and vulnerable if that\u2019s what you want to do. But it\u2019s just being a bit smarter about how you package what you\u2019re saying for it to land in the right way and to balance this idea of stakeholder management in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I get it because business is a very emotional thing, and if you\u2019ve got a voice online, you naturally feel a gravitational pull towards speaking, it helps you. It\u2019s cathartic in a sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I completely understand it, but I do think there is an element of, you\u2019ve got to toe the line and you\u2019ve got to be careful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s about being very tactical. I feel like personal branding in business is very, very, very tactical. Everything has to be thought out, it\u2019s intentional because of those reasons that I just spoke about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sleep on it before sharing something vulnerable<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo would you say if someone is having a moment like that or they would naturally take to social media and say, this is the worst day or something that you should always sit on it for a day? I mean, what\u2019s the best advice when it comes to hitting the pause button in those moments of stress?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I\u2019ve felt it personally. Like I\u2019ve been there, I\u2019ve written the post and then I\u2019ve just sat on it for a couple of days, and I\u2019ve realised that essentially, I just needed to journal a little.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then if I want to take something and share it and I think, \u201cOh, this could actually be quite valuable.\u201d I\u2019ll go back to the journal and figure out what of that is private and what is not private.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I\u2019d say anything that you think is going to be a vulnerability, it\u2019s always worth sitting on it for a couple of days as nothing is ever immediate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then also it\u2019s worth getting somebody else\u2019s outlook on what you\u2019ve said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you trust somebody, run it by them and just sense check things because I think it\u2019s very easy nowadays to just to fire off a thought because you literally just open your phone and press post, you can do it in 15 seconds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that comes with a danger of, especially a lot of entrepreneurs can be quite impulsive and it kind of plays into that. It\u2019s very easy to be impulsive and just shoot something off and then not even think about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And yeah, unfortunately, we\u2019re in a world where your actions tend to have consequences. And I don\u2019t say that to put people off the idea of personal branding, it\u2019s just the reality and there\u2019s great pros and opportunity that come from doing this, but there\u2019s also great cons that come with it as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve got to find the balance between the two. And for me, the idea of personal brand, if you\u2019re in business, it\u2019s the number one most important thing because it feeds everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So that\u2019s the level of importance and ROI and opportunity that you can create from it. There\u2019s a reason why the people at the top of the game are investing so much into this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Like Steven Bartlett has a team, and he spends the majority of his time doing personal brand because it feeds literally everything across his entire business life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you also have to get the balance of knowing the potential pitfalls of what you\u2019re getting into and finding the line with things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I find that the majority of people know where the line is themselves and it\u2019s just making yourself aware and sense checking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Everyone has to start their personal brand journey from zero<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYou mentioned Steven there, we have to ask, how did you end up working together? Tell me a bit about that partnership and how you\u2019ve helped him to become, I mean we can say super brand. He\u2019s a super brand today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I met him in 2012 when he just dropped out of university. He famously did one lecture and dropped out and he had a business idea, and I met him at an event that had nothing to do with business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And we had a mutual friend, and I was about to go to university for 3 years and I wanted to do something else alongside studying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A mutual friend introduced us, Steve was 18, and he said, \u201cOh, Steven\u2019s doing something to do with business.\u201d And we spoke. And then yeah, I started working with him on this idea that he had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that idea took around 2 years to work on. And then that led to Social Chain, which was the agency that he built. And I became part of the founding team at Social Chain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And my job at first was Marketing Director at Social Chain, so I was trying to help the agency market itself and build awareness in the industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that very quickly pivoted to me building\/working on Steve\u2019s personal brand, as we realised that was the best way for Social Chain to drive business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He wasn\u2019t doing personal branding at the time. He started by just doing public speaking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the first year of Social Chain he was doing small events to 15, 20 people. And whenever he did them, it always drove business opportunities for us in a big way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So we sat down at the end of the first year in 2015 and me and Steve had been speaking about something along the lines of making content for a couple of years before that, we just never had a reason to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And now there was a really clear reason to because Social Chain would benefit from it massively. And then that journey started.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was like, \u201cRight, okay, let\u2019s figure this out and start from the ground up.\u201d And I\u2019ve spent 4 years going on that journey with him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the result is Diary Of A CEO.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, it is crazy to think of the journey that he\u2019s gone on. And the interesting thing is, when we sat down to film something for the first time, where we started was video content and we\u2019d film videos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when we sat down for the first time to do it was a 2-and-a-half-minute video and it took 7 hours. He just couldn\u2019t, he knew what he wanted to say, but he\u2019d never done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he was stumbling over his words, we were going over it time and time again, and he was a bit in his own head, overthinking things and all this kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at him now, 10 years later, he\u2019s so incredibly well-versed at the art of being a speaker in different formats and mediums, but it wasn\u2019t always the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally sat in the room for 7 hours to get a 2-minute video, whereas if you ask Steven Bartlett to do a 2-minute video now he does it in one take. There is no second take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there were 50 takes of our first video. So it speaks to the fact that everybody starts somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think again, part of the pressure is that in business, we don\u2019t want people to see us starting from zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But with your personal brand, you don\u2019t have any choice but to be publicly starting from zero, you can\u2019t do it in private, you have to go out into the world and do it in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And unfortunately, you\u2019re starting from zero. And I think people have a big difficulty about their professional network seeing them not be good at something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you have to let people see you not be good at it so you can get good at it. And I think that\u2019s a bit of a barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So whenever I talk about Steve, I always try to use that story of how he started exactly where everybody has to start, at zero. He was just willing to not be good in public for a while to learn how to be good in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Master the psychology of personal branding<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAs well as removing the gatekeepers. And forgive me if I\u2019m wrong, but it feels like there\u2019s been a real blurring between the professional self and the personal self.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the person that you see today who\u2019s talking about their business, you might not hear about their families.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Even it was 10 years ago, you might not hear about their families, what sports they do, their heartbreaks, whereas now it feels like everyone is talking about authenticity, which also means the kind of transparency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think people are showing a lot more of themselves as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think again, it was something that was always happening, it\u2019s just that element of it was happening offline.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how relationships were built were typically offline and it wouldn\u2019t be strange for you to have a meeting with somebody in a business context.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019ve literally just had a meeting now and we spoke for an hour and a half about all things business, marketing, personal brand, and then at the end of the meeting she said, \u201cI\u2019m a fan of Metallica.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was like, \u201cMe too.\u201d And we start talking about heavy metal bands and going to festivals and stuff like this. And that\u2019s what happens in business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It starts off in a business context and then you start learning more about the individual and the other elements of them as a person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019s always been happening in your business offline, whereas now it\u2019s starting to happen online where people are bringing that element of themselves in some way, shape or form to the online piece.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And again, it plays the exact same role. It\u2019s relationship building with people and it\u2019s about giving people a rounded version of who you are as a person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there has been a trend towards it online in the last few years, but its forever happened offline and it\u2019s how relationships are really built and developed in business, I think.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Define your goals to help build your personal brand<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd I guess those conversations that you have that develop naturally when you\u2019re at a meeting or you\u2019re in the room with someone, that feels very easy, building a personal brand feels more intentional.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how do you start with that particular project? What do you begin with? Because it doesn\u2019t just happen on its own as a result of a conversation, you have to start somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think for me, I always start at what outcomes are you trying to create from doing it? What are the specific business and career outcomes that you\u2019re trying to generate? And that looks different for everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019ve found, through working with a lot of different people in different industries at different stages of their career and business growth, they\u2019re all trying to outcome different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But understanding what those outcomes are, like for somebody, say you are a founder who\u2019s in the first year of the business, you\u2019re responsible probably for the majority of the growth and opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your network, it\u2019s your intros, you are driving the sales, you are driving the hiring, you\u2019re driving everything. And knowing, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m responsible for bringing customers or sales or the hires in.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So being very clear on what the outcomes are means that you can reverse engineer how you make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think when people lose sight of the outcome they\u2019re trying to generate, that\u2019s when they end up doing things that aren\u2019t right for them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it\u2019s very easy now to turn up on social media and grow an audience talking about anything. And really we\u2019re in business, we\u2019re all looking for some kind of opportunity that we\u2019re trying to create from doing this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you\u2019re going to put time and resource and effort and energy into something, there has to be an ROI.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think being very intentionally clear about what that ROI is that you\u2019re looking to get, kind of leads you to what steps you should be taking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you\u2019re somebody who\u2019s like I say, a founder in year one, responsible for driving all the sales, you really need to be doing a few things online to generate that to happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a few things that you don\u2019t need to do. They would be nice to have, but you don\u2019t need to do them to get to the outcome that you\u2019re trying to generate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And from my experience, everyone\u2019s path is different. So there is no, \u201cHere\u2019s a personal brand strategy, apply it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s very down to the individual and then you work backwards to build the plan, which makes it a bit difficult because it is very bespoke, but if you figure out what it is, you\u2019re able to generate it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a lot of people approach personal branding a bit of a laissez-faire way, and they never end up getting the opportunity that they\u2019re looking for because the execution isn\u2019t geared towards making the opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Learn what you\u2019re comfortable sharing with your audience<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut there\u2019s a tension here, isn\u2019t there? Because if for example, the outcome that you are aiming for is to increase sales to your business, then it\u2019s quite hard to do that on social media without turning everyone off because no one likes to be sold to, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But at the same time, then you wouldn\u2019t be posting pictures of your dog or the view of the river on the way to work in the morning because that isn\u2019t technically working towards your outcome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how do you navigate that I guess grey area between this is my authentic self and I want you to buy my product.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think on selling to people, it\u2019s selling without selling.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take me for example, I run a personal branding agency and the way that I can help the agency get clients is to be somebody who talks about personal brand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I never really say \u201cGreat Influence does this or we do that.\u201d I just talk about personal brand as a subject. And by doing that, it tends to mean further down the line conversations happen that can turn into business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I\u2019ve never really directly sold the work that we do and what we do, I more just talk around the subject of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think there\u2019s an art to selling without selling and thought leadership is a big part of that. And then the second aspect is do you bring the personality and personal side into it in some sense? And I think it\u2019s a very personal choice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s undoubtedly some benefits from bringing personal elements of who you are into doing this because it helps you to foster and build relationships and build connection with people that they can resonate to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there\u2019s a pressure now to do it that maybe didn\u2019t exist before because a lot more people are doing it. I don\u2019t think that people have to buckle to that pressure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think the trick to all of this is doing something that you\u2019re really comfortable with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me personally, I try to show up online for the sake of the business. And there\u2019s things I\u2019m not comfortable sharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
For example, professionally for the past 3 months, Great Influence has been amazing. But my personal life has been a mess for the past 3 months. But I\u2019m not choosing to bring that online because I\u2019m not comfortable talking about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If I was, I maybe would figure out how I talk about it, what\u2019s right to talk about and how does it relate to the people that I\u2019m speaking to into the world that I\u2019m sitting in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think you have to be comfortable with what you are doing with the execution of what you\u2019re doing. And the minute that you start doing things you\u2019re not comfortable with is the minute that you lose the consistency that you have to put in to make it all happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I mean, it\u2019s never say never. I\u2019ve seen people go on a journey with this that we\u2019ve worked with and they\u2019ve naturally over time become more confident, more comfortable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They naturally start talking about things wider than they initially started in the first place and their personal lives and all that kind of thing does come into it at times, and they grow the confidence to do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I just think it\u2019s very much about understanding what you are comfortable with and coupling that with the outcomes that you\u2019re trying to achieve and going, \u201cRight, okay, given what I\u2019m trying to achieve and what I can do and what I\u2019m comfortable with, what\u2019s the execution that ticks those 3 boxes?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you figure out that the consistency part becomes really easy. And I think one of the struggles with personal brand is consistency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
People can have spurts and moments where they\u2019re very active and they feel on it and all these things, and then all of a sudden, it\u2019s been 2, 3, 4 weeks and they\u2019ve fallen out of the rhythm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it\u2019s because they haven\u2019t found that almost like trifecta and ticking the right boxes. And then I found that the people that do, consistency becomes very easy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Post on social media with stakeholder management in mind<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nIt\u2019s really great to hear you, an expert be so pragmatic and sort of tackle these issues because I do feel there\u2019s a lot of pressure to overshare and to share the bad stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in fact, we\u2019ve had guests on this show whose businesses were really struggling and then, it was the founder of White Rabbit Skincare.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
She went on Instagram and basically kind of had her breakdown in public saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to have to close my business. I\u2019ve been throwing everything into this for the last few years and I can\u2019t do it anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the response was enormous. She sold out within 24 hours every product she had went. But then she might feel pressured to keep sharing those kind of moments and sometimes maybe it\u2019ll feel to her like it\u2019s oversharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think that\u2019s really hard for founders to know where to draw those boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nThe issue is that you\u2019re not someone with no responsibilities. You\u2019ve really got to bring into the picture the idea of stakeholder management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The majority of people doing this in a business context have at least 1 person who it matters what they say, and it impacts the other person involved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whether you\u2019re a freelancer and you have a client, you\u2019ve got to think about what you\u2019re saying through how the client perceives it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Or you are the CEO of a 500-person company and you\u2019ve got investors, you\u2019ve got employees, you\u2019ve got partners, you\u2019ve got suppliers. There\u2019s all those kind of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So stakeholder management really does have to come into the pitch with this. And you have to know the balance of, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m comfortable sharing something that\u2019s a bit personal or a bit revealing of the business. How do I do that in the best way given the idea of stakeholder management? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with our team? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with the investors?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is a bit of a complex thing to do. And I\u2019ve seen a couple of instances. I literally saw one this morning of the founder of a fashion brand and she was essentially saying, \u201cI can\u2019t do this anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in my head, I was thinking, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the best thing for you to say. There\u2019s a way to say what you want to say, but you\u2019ve just got to package it in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because what you\u2019ve just posted, yes, a bunch of people on social that follow you and your audience are going to see it, but your team is going to see it and your leadership team is going to see it and your investors are going to see it and what confidence does it give them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes, you\u2019re going through a moment, and they\u2019ll know that you\u2019re going through a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the problem isn\u2019t sharing the moment and being honest and vulnerable if that\u2019s what you want to do. But it\u2019s just being a bit smarter about how you package what you\u2019re saying for it to land in the right way and to balance this idea of stakeholder management in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I get it because business is a very emotional thing, and if you\u2019ve got a voice online, you naturally feel a gravitational pull towards speaking, it helps you. It\u2019s cathartic in a sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I completely understand it, but I do think there is an element of, you\u2019ve got to toe the line and you\u2019ve got to be careful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s about being very tactical. I feel like personal branding in business is very, very, very tactical. Everything has to be thought out, it\u2019s intentional because of those reasons that I just spoke about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sleep on it before sharing something vulnerable<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo would you say if someone is having a moment like that or they would naturally take to social media and say, this is the worst day or something that you should always sit on it for a day? I mean, what\u2019s the best advice when it comes to hitting the pause button in those moments of stress?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I\u2019ve felt it personally. Like I\u2019ve been there, I\u2019ve written the post and then I\u2019ve just sat on it for a couple of days, and I\u2019ve realised that essentially, I just needed to journal a little.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then if I want to take something and share it and I think, \u201cOh, this could actually be quite valuable.\u201d I\u2019ll go back to the journal and figure out what of that is private and what is not private.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I\u2019d say anything that you think is going to be a vulnerability, it\u2019s always worth sitting on it for a couple of days as nothing is ever immediate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then also it\u2019s worth getting somebody else\u2019s outlook on what you\u2019ve said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you trust somebody, run it by them and just sense check things because I think it\u2019s very easy nowadays to just to fire off a thought because you literally just open your phone and press post, you can do it in 15 seconds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that comes with a danger of, especially a lot of entrepreneurs can be quite impulsive and it kind of plays into that. It\u2019s very easy to be impulsive and just shoot something off and then not even think about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And yeah, unfortunately, we\u2019re in a world where your actions tend to have consequences. And I don\u2019t say that to put people off the idea of personal branding, it\u2019s just the reality and there\u2019s great pros and opportunity that come from doing this, but there\u2019s also great cons that come with it as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve got to find the balance between the two. And for me, the idea of personal brand, if you\u2019re in business, it\u2019s the number one most important thing because it feeds everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So that\u2019s the level of importance and ROI and opportunity that you can create from it. There\u2019s a reason why the people at the top of the game are investing so much into this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Like Steven Bartlett has a team, and he spends the majority of his time doing personal brand because it feeds literally everything across his entire business life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you also have to get the balance of knowing the potential pitfalls of what you\u2019re getting into and finding the line with things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I find that the majority of people know where the line is themselves and it\u2019s just making yourself aware and sense checking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Everyone has to start their personal brand journey from zero<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYou mentioned Steven there, we have to ask, how did you end up working together? Tell me a bit about that partnership and how you\u2019ve helped him to become, I mean we can say super brand. He\u2019s a super brand today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I met him in 2012 when he just dropped out of university. He famously did one lecture and dropped out and he had a business idea, and I met him at an event that had nothing to do with business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And we had a mutual friend, and I was about to go to university for 3 years and I wanted to do something else alongside studying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A mutual friend introduced us, Steve was 18, and he said, \u201cOh, Steven\u2019s doing something to do with business.\u201d And we spoke. And then yeah, I started working with him on this idea that he had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that idea took around 2 years to work on. And then that led to Social Chain, which was the agency that he built. And I became part of the founding team at Social Chain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And my job at first was Marketing Director at Social Chain, so I was trying to help the agency market itself and build awareness in the industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that very quickly pivoted to me building\/working on Steve\u2019s personal brand, as we realised that was the best way for Social Chain to drive business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He wasn\u2019t doing personal branding at the time. He started by just doing public speaking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the first year of Social Chain he was doing small events to 15, 20 people. And whenever he did them, it always drove business opportunities for us in a big way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So we sat down at the end of the first year in 2015 and me and Steve had been speaking about something along the lines of making content for a couple of years before that, we just never had a reason to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And now there was a really clear reason to because Social Chain would benefit from it massively. And then that journey started.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was like, \u201cRight, okay, let\u2019s figure this out and start from the ground up.\u201d And I\u2019ve spent 4 years going on that journey with him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the result is Diary Of A CEO.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, it is crazy to think of the journey that he\u2019s gone on. And the interesting thing is, when we sat down to film something for the first time, where we started was video content and we\u2019d film videos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when we sat down for the first time to do it was a 2-and-a-half-minute video and it took 7 hours. He just couldn\u2019t, he knew what he wanted to say, but he\u2019d never done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he was stumbling over his words, we were going over it time and time again, and he was a bit in his own head, overthinking things and all this kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at him now, 10 years later, he\u2019s so incredibly well-versed at the art of being a speaker in different formats and mediums, but it wasn\u2019t always the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally sat in the room for 7 hours to get a 2-minute video, whereas if you ask Steven Bartlett to do a 2-minute video now he does it in one take. There is no second take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there were 50 takes of our first video. So it speaks to the fact that everybody starts somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think again, part of the pressure is that in business, we don\u2019t want people to see us starting from zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But with your personal brand, you don\u2019t have any choice but to be publicly starting from zero, you can\u2019t do it in private, you have to go out into the world and do it in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And unfortunately, you\u2019re starting from zero. And I think people have a big difficulty about their professional network seeing them not be good at something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you have to let people see you not be good at it so you can get good at it. And I think that\u2019s a bit of a barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So whenever I talk about Steve, I always try to use that story of how he started exactly where everybody has to start, at zero. He was just willing to not be good in public for a while to learn how to be good in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Master the psychology of personal branding<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, I think again, it was something that was always happening, it\u2019s just that element of it was happening offline.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how relationships were built were typically offline and it wouldn\u2019t be strange for you to have a meeting with somebody in a business context.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019ve literally just had a meeting now and we spoke for an hour and a half about all things business, marketing, personal brand, and then at the end of the meeting she said, \u201cI\u2019m a fan of Metallica.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was like, \u201cMe too.\u201d And we start talking about heavy metal bands and going to festivals and stuff like this. And that\u2019s what happens in business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It starts off in a business context and then you start learning more about the individual and the other elements of them as a person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019s always been happening in your business offline, whereas now it\u2019s starting to happen online where people are bringing that element of themselves in some way, shape or form to the online piece.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And again, it plays the exact same role. It\u2019s relationship building with people and it\u2019s about giving people a rounded version of who you are as a person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there has been a trend towards it online in the last few years, but its forever happened offline and it\u2019s how relationships are really built and developed in business, I think.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Define your goals to help build your personal brand<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd I guess those conversations that you have that develop naturally when you\u2019re at a meeting or you\u2019re in the room with someone, that feels very easy, building a personal brand feels more intentional.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how do you start with that particular project? What do you begin with? Because it doesn\u2019t just happen on its own as a result of a conversation, you have to start somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think for me, I always start at what outcomes are you trying to create from doing it? What are the specific business and career outcomes that you\u2019re trying to generate? And that looks different for everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019ve found, through working with a lot of different people in different industries at different stages of their career and business growth, they\u2019re all trying to outcome different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But understanding what those outcomes are, like for somebody, say you are a founder who\u2019s in the first year of the business, you\u2019re responsible probably for the majority of the growth and opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your network, it\u2019s your intros, you are driving the sales, you are driving the hiring, you\u2019re driving everything. And knowing, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m responsible for bringing customers or sales or the hires in.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So being very clear on what the outcomes are means that you can reverse engineer how you make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think when people lose sight of the outcome they\u2019re trying to generate, that\u2019s when they end up doing things that aren\u2019t right for them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it\u2019s very easy now to turn up on social media and grow an audience talking about anything. And really we\u2019re in business, we\u2019re all looking for some kind of opportunity that we\u2019re trying to create from doing this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you\u2019re going to put time and resource and effort and energy into something, there has to be an ROI.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think being very intentionally clear about what that ROI is that you\u2019re looking to get, kind of leads you to what steps you should be taking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you\u2019re somebody who\u2019s like I say, a founder in year one, responsible for driving all the sales, you really need to be doing a few things online to generate that to happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a few things that you don\u2019t need to do. They would be nice to have, but you don\u2019t need to do them to get to the outcome that you\u2019re trying to generate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And from my experience, everyone\u2019s path is different. So there is no, \u201cHere\u2019s a personal brand strategy, apply it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s very down to the individual and then you work backwards to build the plan, which makes it a bit difficult because it is very bespoke, but if you figure out what it is, you\u2019re able to generate it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a lot of people approach personal branding a bit of a laissez-faire way, and they never end up getting the opportunity that they\u2019re looking for because the execution isn\u2019t geared towards making the opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Learn what you\u2019re comfortable sharing with your audience<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut there\u2019s a tension here, isn\u2019t there? Because if for example, the outcome that you are aiming for is to increase sales to your business, then it\u2019s quite hard to do that on social media without turning everyone off because no one likes to be sold to, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But at the same time, then you wouldn\u2019t be posting pictures of your dog or the view of the river on the way to work in the morning because that isn\u2019t technically working towards your outcome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how do you navigate that I guess grey area between this is my authentic self and I want you to buy my product.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think on selling to people, it\u2019s selling without selling.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take me for example, I run a personal branding agency and the way that I can help the agency get clients is to be somebody who talks about personal brand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I never really say \u201cGreat Influence does this or we do that.\u201d I just talk about personal brand as a subject. And by doing that, it tends to mean further down the line conversations happen that can turn into business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I\u2019ve never really directly sold the work that we do and what we do, I more just talk around the subject of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think there\u2019s an art to selling without selling and thought leadership is a big part of that. And then the second aspect is do you bring the personality and personal side into it in some sense? And I think it\u2019s a very personal choice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s undoubtedly some benefits from bringing personal elements of who you are into doing this because it helps you to foster and build relationships and build connection with people that they can resonate to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there\u2019s a pressure now to do it that maybe didn\u2019t exist before because a lot more people are doing it. I don\u2019t think that people have to buckle to that pressure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think the trick to all of this is doing something that you\u2019re really comfortable with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me personally, I try to show up online for the sake of the business. And there\u2019s things I\u2019m not comfortable sharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
For example, professionally for the past 3 months, Great Influence has been amazing. But my personal life has been a mess for the past 3 months. But I\u2019m not choosing to bring that online because I\u2019m not comfortable talking about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If I was, I maybe would figure out how I talk about it, what\u2019s right to talk about and how does it relate to the people that I\u2019m speaking to into the world that I\u2019m sitting in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think you have to be comfortable with what you are doing with the execution of what you\u2019re doing. And the minute that you start doing things you\u2019re not comfortable with is the minute that you lose the consistency that you have to put in to make it all happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I mean, it\u2019s never say never. I\u2019ve seen people go on a journey with this that we\u2019ve worked with and they\u2019ve naturally over time become more confident, more comfortable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They naturally start talking about things wider than they initially started in the first place and their personal lives and all that kind of thing does come into it at times, and they grow the confidence to do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I just think it\u2019s very much about understanding what you are comfortable with and coupling that with the outcomes that you\u2019re trying to achieve and going, \u201cRight, okay, given what I\u2019m trying to achieve and what I can do and what I\u2019m comfortable with, what\u2019s the execution that ticks those 3 boxes?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you figure out that the consistency part becomes really easy. And I think one of the struggles with personal brand is consistency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
People can have spurts and moments where they\u2019re very active and they feel on it and all these things, and then all of a sudden, it\u2019s been 2, 3, 4 weeks and they\u2019ve fallen out of the rhythm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it\u2019s because they haven\u2019t found that almost like trifecta and ticking the right boxes. And then I found that the people that do, consistency becomes very easy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Post on social media with stakeholder management in mind<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nIt\u2019s really great to hear you, an expert be so pragmatic and sort of tackle these issues because I do feel there\u2019s a lot of pressure to overshare and to share the bad stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in fact, we\u2019ve had guests on this show whose businesses were really struggling and then, it was the founder of White Rabbit Skincare.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
She went on Instagram and basically kind of had her breakdown in public saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to have to close my business. I\u2019ve been throwing everything into this for the last few years and I can\u2019t do it anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the response was enormous. She sold out within 24 hours every product she had went. But then she might feel pressured to keep sharing those kind of moments and sometimes maybe it\u2019ll feel to her like it\u2019s oversharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think that\u2019s really hard for founders to know where to draw those boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nThe issue is that you\u2019re not someone with no responsibilities. You\u2019ve really got to bring into the picture the idea of stakeholder management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The majority of people doing this in a business context have at least 1 person who it matters what they say, and it impacts the other person involved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whether you\u2019re a freelancer and you have a client, you\u2019ve got to think about what you\u2019re saying through how the client perceives it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Or you are the CEO of a 500-person company and you\u2019ve got investors, you\u2019ve got employees, you\u2019ve got partners, you\u2019ve got suppliers. There\u2019s all those kind of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So stakeholder management really does have to come into the pitch with this. And you have to know the balance of, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m comfortable sharing something that\u2019s a bit personal or a bit revealing of the business. How do I do that in the best way given the idea of stakeholder management? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with our team? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with the investors?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is a bit of a complex thing to do. And I\u2019ve seen a couple of instances. I literally saw one this morning of the founder of a fashion brand and she was essentially saying, \u201cI can\u2019t do this anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in my head, I was thinking, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the best thing for you to say. There\u2019s a way to say what you want to say, but you\u2019ve just got to package it in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because what you\u2019ve just posted, yes, a bunch of people on social that follow you and your audience are going to see it, but your team is going to see it and your leadership team is going to see it and your investors are going to see it and what confidence does it give them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes, you\u2019re going through a moment, and they\u2019ll know that you\u2019re going through a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the problem isn\u2019t sharing the moment and being honest and vulnerable if that\u2019s what you want to do. But it\u2019s just being a bit smarter about how you package what you\u2019re saying for it to land in the right way and to balance this idea of stakeholder management in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I get it because business is a very emotional thing, and if you\u2019ve got a voice online, you naturally feel a gravitational pull towards speaking, it helps you. It\u2019s cathartic in a sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I completely understand it, but I do think there is an element of, you\u2019ve got to toe the line and you\u2019ve got to be careful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s about being very tactical. I feel like personal branding in business is very, very, very tactical. Everything has to be thought out, it\u2019s intentional because of those reasons that I just spoke about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sleep on it before sharing something vulnerable<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo would you say if someone is having a moment like that or they would naturally take to social media and say, this is the worst day or something that you should always sit on it for a day? I mean, what\u2019s the best advice when it comes to hitting the pause button in those moments of stress?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I\u2019ve felt it personally. Like I\u2019ve been there, I\u2019ve written the post and then I\u2019ve just sat on it for a couple of days, and I\u2019ve realised that essentially, I just needed to journal a little.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then if I want to take something and share it and I think, \u201cOh, this could actually be quite valuable.\u201d I\u2019ll go back to the journal and figure out what of that is private and what is not private.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I\u2019d say anything that you think is going to be a vulnerability, it\u2019s always worth sitting on it for a couple of days as nothing is ever immediate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then also it\u2019s worth getting somebody else\u2019s outlook on what you\u2019ve said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you trust somebody, run it by them and just sense check things because I think it\u2019s very easy nowadays to just to fire off a thought because you literally just open your phone and press post, you can do it in 15 seconds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that comes with a danger of, especially a lot of entrepreneurs can be quite impulsive and it kind of plays into that. It\u2019s very easy to be impulsive and just shoot something off and then not even think about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And yeah, unfortunately, we\u2019re in a world where your actions tend to have consequences. And I don\u2019t say that to put people off the idea of personal branding, it\u2019s just the reality and there\u2019s great pros and opportunity that come from doing this, but there\u2019s also great cons that come with it as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve got to find the balance between the two. And for me, the idea of personal brand, if you\u2019re in business, it\u2019s the number one most important thing because it feeds everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So that\u2019s the level of importance and ROI and opportunity that you can create from it. There\u2019s a reason why the people at the top of the game are investing so much into this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Like Steven Bartlett has a team, and he spends the majority of his time doing personal brand because it feeds literally everything across his entire business life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you also have to get the balance of knowing the potential pitfalls of what you\u2019re getting into and finding the line with things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I find that the majority of people know where the line is themselves and it\u2019s just making yourself aware and sense checking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Everyone has to start their personal brand journey from zero<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYou mentioned Steven there, we have to ask, how did you end up working together? Tell me a bit about that partnership and how you\u2019ve helped him to become, I mean we can say super brand. He\u2019s a super brand today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I met him in 2012 when he just dropped out of university. He famously did one lecture and dropped out and he had a business idea, and I met him at an event that had nothing to do with business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And we had a mutual friend, and I was about to go to university for 3 years and I wanted to do something else alongside studying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A mutual friend introduced us, Steve was 18, and he said, \u201cOh, Steven\u2019s doing something to do with business.\u201d And we spoke. And then yeah, I started working with him on this idea that he had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that idea took around 2 years to work on. And then that led to Social Chain, which was the agency that he built. And I became part of the founding team at Social Chain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And my job at first was Marketing Director at Social Chain, so I was trying to help the agency market itself and build awareness in the industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that very quickly pivoted to me building\/working on Steve\u2019s personal brand, as we realised that was the best way for Social Chain to drive business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He wasn\u2019t doing personal branding at the time. He started by just doing public speaking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the first year of Social Chain he was doing small events to 15, 20 people. And whenever he did them, it always drove business opportunities for us in a big way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So we sat down at the end of the first year in 2015 and me and Steve had been speaking about something along the lines of making content for a couple of years before that, we just never had a reason to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And now there was a really clear reason to because Social Chain would benefit from it massively. And then that journey started.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was like, \u201cRight, okay, let\u2019s figure this out and start from the ground up.\u201d And I\u2019ve spent 4 years going on that journey with him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the result is Diary Of A CEO.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, it is crazy to think of the journey that he\u2019s gone on. And the interesting thing is, when we sat down to film something for the first time, where we started was video content and we\u2019d film videos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when we sat down for the first time to do it was a 2-and-a-half-minute video and it took 7 hours. He just couldn\u2019t, he knew what he wanted to say, but he\u2019d never done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he was stumbling over his words, we were going over it time and time again, and he was a bit in his own head, overthinking things and all this kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at him now, 10 years later, he\u2019s so incredibly well-versed at the art of being a speaker in different formats and mediums, but it wasn\u2019t always the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally sat in the room for 7 hours to get a 2-minute video, whereas if you ask Steven Bartlett to do a 2-minute video now he does it in one take. There is no second take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there were 50 takes of our first video. So it speaks to the fact that everybody starts somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think again, part of the pressure is that in business, we don\u2019t want people to see us starting from zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But with your personal brand, you don\u2019t have any choice but to be publicly starting from zero, you can\u2019t do it in private, you have to go out into the world and do it in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And unfortunately, you\u2019re starting from zero. And I think people have a big difficulty about their professional network seeing them not be good at something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you have to let people see you not be good at it so you can get good at it. And I think that\u2019s a bit of a barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So whenever I talk about Steve, I always try to use that story of how he started exactly where everybody has to start, at zero. He was just willing to not be good in public for a while to learn how to be good in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Master the psychology of personal branding<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I guess those conversations that you have that develop naturally when you\u2019re at a meeting or you\u2019re in the room with someone, that feels very easy, building a personal brand feels more intentional.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how do you start with that particular project? What do you begin with? Because it doesn\u2019t just happen on its own as a result of a conversation, you have to start somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think for me, I always start at what outcomes are you trying to create from doing it? What are the specific business and career outcomes that you\u2019re trying to generate? And that looks different for everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019ve found, through working with a lot of different people in different industries at different stages of their career and business growth, they\u2019re all trying to outcome different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But understanding what those outcomes are, like for somebody, say you are a founder who\u2019s in the first year of the business, you\u2019re responsible probably for the majority of the growth and opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your network, it\u2019s your intros, you are driving the sales, you are driving the hiring, you\u2019re driving everything. And knowing, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m responsible for bringing customers or sales or the hires in.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So being very clear on what the outcomes are means that you can reverse engineer how you make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think when people lose sight of the outcome they\u2019re trying to generate, that\u2019s when they end up doing things that aren\u2019t right for them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it\u2019s very easy now to turn up on social media and grow an audience talking about anything. And really we\u2019re in business, we\u2019re all looking for some kind of opportunity that we\u2019re trying to create from doing this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you\u2019re going to put time and resource and effort and energy into something, there has to be an ROI.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think being very intentionally clear about what that ROI is that you\u2019re looking to get, kind of leads you to what steps you should be taking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you\u2019re somebody who\u2019s like I say, a founder in year one, responsible for driving all the sales, you really need to be doing a few things online to generate that to happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a few things that you don\u2019t need to do. They would be nice to have, but you don\u2019t need to do them to get to the outcome that you\u2019re trying to generate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And from my experience, everyone\u2019s path is different. So there is no, \u201cHere\u2019s a personal brand strategy, apply it.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s very down to the individual and then you work backwards to build the plan, which makes it a bit difficult because it is very bespoke, but if you figure out what it is, you\u2019re able to generate it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a lot of people approach personal branding a bit of a laissez-faire way, and they never end up getting the opportunity that they\u2019re looking for because the execution isn\u2019t geared towards making the opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Learn what you\u2019re comfortable sharing with your audience<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut there\u2019s a tension here, isn\u2019t there? Because if for example, the outcome that you are aiming for is to increase sales to your business, then it\u2019s quite hard to do that on social media without turning everyone off because no one likes to be sold to, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But at the same time, then you wouldn\u2019t be posting pictures of your dog or the view of the river on the way to work in the morning because that isn\u2019t technically working towards your outcome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how do you navigate that I guess grey area between this is my authentic self and I want you to buy my product.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think on selling to people, it\u2019s selling without selling.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take me for example, I run a personal branding agency and the way that I can help the agency get clients is to be somebody who talks about personal brand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I never really say \u201cGreat Influence does this or we do that.\u201d I just talk about personal brand as a subject. And by doing that, it tends to mean further down the line conversations happen that can turn into business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I\u2019ve never really directly sold the work that we do and what we do, I more just talk around the subject of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think there\u2019s an art to selling without selling and thought leadership is a big part of that. And then the second aspect is do you bring the personality and personal side into it in some sense? And I think it\u2019s a very personal choice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s undoubtedly some benefits from bringing personal elements of who you are into doing this because it helps you to foster and build relationships and build connection with people that they can resonate to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there\u2019s a pressure now to do it that maybe didn\u2019t exist before because a lot more people are doing it. I don\u2019t think that people have to buckle to that pressure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think the trick to all of this is doing something that you\u2019re really comfortable with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me personally, I try to show up online for the sake of the business. And there\u2019s things I\u2019m not comfortable sharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
For example, professionally for the past 3 months, Great Influence has been amazing. But my personal life has been a mess for the past 3 months. But I\u2019m not choosing to bring that online because I\u2019m not comfortable talking about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If I was, I maybe would figure out how I talk about it, what\u2019s right to talk about and how does it relate to the people that I\u2019m speaking to into the world that I\u2019m sitting in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think you have to be comfortable with what you are doing with the execution of what you\u2019re doing. And the minute that you start doing things you\u2019re not comfortable with is the minute that you lose the consistency that you have to put in to make it all happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I mean, it\u2019s never say never. I\u2019ve seen people go on a journey with this that we\u2019ve worked with and they\u2019ve naturally over time become more confident, more comfortable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They naturally start talking about things wider than they initially started in the first place and their personal lives and all that kind of thing does come into it at times, and they grow the confidence to do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I just think it\u2019s very much about understanding what you are comfortable with and coupling that with the outcomes that you\u2019re trying to achieve and going, \u201cRight, okay, given what I\u2019m trying to achieve and what I can do and what I\u2019m comfortable with, what\u2019s the execution that ticks those 3 boxes?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you figure out that the consistency part becomes really easy. And I think one of the struggles with personal brand is consistency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
People can have spurts and moments where they\u2019re very active and they feel on it and all these things, and then all of a sudden, it\u2019s been 2, 3, 4 weeks and they\u2019ve fallen out of the rhythm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it\u2019s because they haven\u2019t found that almost like trifecta and ticking the right boxes. And then I found that the people that do, consistency becomes very easy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Post on social media with stakeholder management in mind<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nIt\u2019s really great to hear you, an expert be so pragmatic and sort of tackle these issues because I do feel there\u2019s a lot of pressure to overshare and to share the bad stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in fact, we\u2019ve had guests on this show whose businesses were really struggling and then, it was the founder of White Rabbit Skincare.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
She went on Instagram and basically kind of had her breakdown in public saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to have to close my business. I\u2019ve been throwing everything into this for the last few years and I can\u2019t do it anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the response was enormous. She sold out within 24 hours every product she had went. But then she might feel pressured to keep sharing those kind of moments and sometimes maybe it\u2019ll feel to her like it\u2019s oversharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think that\u2019s really hard for founders to know where to draw those boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nThe issue is that you\u2019re not someone with no responsibilities. You\u2019ve really got to bring into the picture the idea of stakeholder management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The majority of people doing this in a business context have at least 1 person who it matters what they say, and it impacts the other person involved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whether you\u2019re a freelancer and you have a client, you\u2019ve got to think about what you\u2019re saying through how the client perceives it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Or you are the CEO of a 500-person company and you\u2019ve got investors, you\u2019ve got employees, you\u2019ve got partners, you\u2019ve got suppliers. There\u2019s all those kind of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So stakeholder management really does have to come into the pitch with this. And you have to know the balance of, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m comfortable sharing something that\u2019s a bit personal or a bit revealing of the business. How do I do that in the best way given the idea of stakeholder management? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with our team? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with the investors?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is a bit of a complex thing to do. And I\u2019ve seen a couple of instances. I literally saw one this morning of the founder of a fashion brand and she was essentially saying, \u201cI can\u2019t do this anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in my head, I was thinking, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the best thing for you to say. There\u2019s a way to say what you want to say, but you\u2019ve just got to package it in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because what you\u2019ve just posted, yes, a bunch of people on social that follow you and your audience are going to see it, but your team is going to see it and your leadership team is going to see it and your investors are going to see it and what confidence does it give them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes, you\u2019re going through a moment, and they\u2019ll know that you\u2019re going through a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the problem isn\u2019t sharing the moment and being honest and vulnerable if that\u2019s what you want to do. But it\u2019s just being a bit smarter about how you package what you\u2019re saying for it to land in the right way and to balance this idea of stakeholder management in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I get it because business is a very emotional thing, and if you\u2019ve got a voice online, you naturally feel a gravitational pull towards speaking, it helps you. It\u2019s cathartic in a sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I completely understand it, but I do think there is an element of, you\u2019ve got to toe the line and you\u2019ve got to be careful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s about being very tactical. I feel like personal branding in business is very, very, very tactical. Everything has to be thought out, it\u2019s intentional because of those reasons that I just spoke about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sleep on it before sharing something vulnerable<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo would you say if someone is having a moment like that or they would naturally take to social media and say, this is the worst day or something that you should always sit on it for a day? I mean, what\u2019s the best advice when it comes to hitting the pause button in those moments of stress?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I\u2019ve felt it personally. Like I\u2019ve been there, I\u2019ve written the post and then I\u2019ve just sat on it for a couple of days, and I\u2019ve realised that essentially, I just needed to journal a little.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then if I want to take something and share it and I think, \u201cOh, this could actually be quite valuable.\u201d I\u2019ll go back to the journal and figure out what of that is private and what is not private.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I\u2019d say anything that you think is going to be a vulnerability, it\u2019s always worth sitting on it for a couple of days as nothing is ever immediate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then also it\u2019s worth getting somebody else\u2019s outlook on what you\u2019ve said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you trust somebody, run it by them and just sense check things because I think it\u2019s very easy nowadays to just to fire off a thought because you literally just open your phone and press post, you can do it in 15 seconds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that comes with a danger of, especially a lot of entrepreneurs can be quite impulsive and it kind of plays into that. It\u2019s very easy to be impulsive and just shoot something off and then not even think about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And yeah, unfortunately, we\u2019re in a world where your actions tend to have consequences. And I don\u2019t say that to put people off the idea of personal branding, it\u2019s just the reality and there\u2019s great pros and opportunity that come from doing this, but there\u2019s also great cons that come with it as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve got to find the balance between the two. And for me, the idea of personal brand, if you\u2019re in business, it\u2019s the number one most important thing because it feeds everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So that\u2019s the level of importance and ROI and opportunity that you can create from it. There\u2019s a reason why the people at the top of the game are investing so much into this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Like Steven Bartlett has a team, and he spends the majority of his time doing personal brand because it feeds literally everything across his entire business life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you also have to get the balance of knowing the potential pitfalls of what you\u2019re getting into and finding the line with things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I find that the majority of people know where the line is themselves and it\u2019s just making yourself aware and sense checking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Everyone has to start their personal brand journey from zero<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYou mentioned Steven there, we have to ask, how did you end up working together? Tell me a bit about that partnership and how you\u2019ve helped him to become, I mean we can say super brand. He\u2019s a super brand today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I met him in 2012 when he just dropped out of university. He famously did one lecture and dropped out and he had a business idea, and I met him at an event that had nothing to do with business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And we had a mutual friend, and I was about to go to university for 3 years and I wanted to do something else alongside studying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A mutual friend introduced us, Steve was 18, and he said, \u201cOh, Steven\u2019s doing something to do with business.\u201d And we spoke. And then yeah, I started working with him on this idea that he had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that idea took around 2 years to work on. And then that led to Social Chain, which was the agency that he built. And I became part of the founding team at Social Chain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And my job at first was Marketing Director at Social Chain, so I was trying to help the agency market itself and build awareness in the industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that very quickly pivoted to me building\/working on Steve\u2019s personal brand, as we realised that was the best way for Social Chain to drive business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He wasn\u2019t doing personal branding at the time. He started by just doing public speaking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the first year of Social Chain he was doing small events to 15, 20 people. And whenever he did them, it always drove business opportunities for us in a big way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So we sat down at the end of the first year in 2015 and me and Steve had been speaking about something along the lines of making content for a couple of years before that, we just never had a reason to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And now there was a really clear reason to because Social Chain would benefit from it massively. And then that journey started.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was like, \u201cRight, okay, let\u2019s figure this out and start from the ground up.\u201d And I\u2019ve spent 4 years going on that journey with him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the result is Diary Of A CEO.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, it is crazy to think of the journey that he\u2019s gone on. And the interesting thing is, when we sat down to film something for the first time, where we started was video content and we\u2019d film videos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when we sat down for the first time to do it was a 2-and-a-half-minute video and it took 7 hours. He just couldn\u2019t, he knew what he wanted to say, but he\u2019d never done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he was stumbling over his words, we were going over it time and time again, and he was a bit in his own head, overthinking things and all this kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at him now, 10 years later, he\u2019s so incredibly well-versed at the art of being a speaker in different formats and mediums, but it wasn\u2019t always the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally sat in the room for 7 hours to get a 2-minute video, whereas if you ask Steven Bartlett to do a 2-minute video now he does it in one take. There is no second take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there were 50 takes of our first video. So it speaks to the fact that everybody starts somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think again, part of the pressure is that in business, we don\u2019t want people to see us starting from zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But with your personal brand, you don\u2019t have any choice but to be publicly starting from zero, you can\u2019t do it in private, you have to go out into the world and do it in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And unfortunately, you\u2019re starting from zero. And I think people have a big difficulty about their professional network seeing them not be good at something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you have to let people see you not be good at it so you can get good at it. And I think that\u2019s a bit of a barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So whenever I talk about Steve, I always try to use that story of how he started exactly where everybody has to start, at zero. He was just willing to not be good in public for a while to learn how to be good in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Master the psychology of personal branding<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut there\u2019s a tension here, isn\u2019t there? Because if for example, the outcome that you are aiming for is to increase sales to your business, then it\u2019s quite hard to do that on social media without turning everyone off because no one likes to be sold to, right?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But at the same time, then you wouldn\u2019t be posting pictures of your dog or the view of the river on the way to work in the morning because that isn\u2019t technically working towards your outcome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So how do you navigate that I guess grey area between this is my authentic self and I want you to buy my product.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think on selling to people, it\u2019s selling without selling.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take me for example, I run a personal branding agency and the way that I can help the agency get clients is to be somebody who talks about personal brand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I never really say \u201cGreat Influence does this or we do that.\u201d I just talk about personal brand as a subject. And by doing that, it tends to mean further down the line conversations happen that can turn into business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I\u2019ve never really directly sold the work that we do and what we do, I more just talk around the subject of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think there\u2019s an art to selling without selling and thought leadership is a big part of that. And then the second aspect is do you bring the personality and personal side into it in some sense? And I think it\u2019s a very personal choice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s undoubtedly some benefits from bringing personal elements of who you are into doing this because it helps you to foster and build relationships and build connection with people that they can resonate to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there\u2019s a pressure now to do it that maybe didn\u2019t exist before because a lot more people are doing it. I don\u2019t think that people have to buckle to that pressure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think the trick to all of this is doing something that you\u2019re really comfortable with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me personally, I try to show up online for the sake of the business. And there\u2019s things I\u2019m not comfortable sharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
For example, professionally for the past 3 months, Great Influence has been amazing. But my personal life has been a mess for the past 3 months. But I\u2019m not choosing to bring that online because I\u2019m not comfortable talking about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If I was, I maybe would figure out how I talk about it, what\u2019s right to talk about and how does it relate to the people that I\u2019m speaking to into the world that I\u2019m sitting in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think you have to be comfortable with what you are doing with the execution of what you\u2019re doing. And the minute that you start doing things you\u2019re not comfortable with is the minute that you lose the consistency that you have to put in to make it all happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I mean, it\u2019s never say never. I\u2019ve seen people go on a journey with this that we\u2019ve worked with and they\u2019ve naturally over time become more confident, more comfortable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They naturally start talking about things wider than they initially started in the first place and their personal lives and all that kind of thing does come into it at times, and they grow the confidence to do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I just think it\u2019s very much about understanding what you are comfortable with and coupling that with the outcomes that you\u2019re trying to achieve and going, \u201cRight, okay, given what I\u2019m trying to achieve and what I can do and what I\u2019m comfortable with, what\u2019s the execution that ticks those 3 boxes?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you figure out that the consistency part becomes really easy. And I think one of the struggles with personal brand is consistency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
People can have spurts and moments where they\u2019re very active and they feel on it and all these things, and then all of a sudden, it\u2019s been 2, 3, 4 weeks and they\u2019ve fallen out of the rhythm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it\u2019s because they haven\u2019t found that almost like trifecta and ticking the right boxes. And then I found that the people that do, consistency becomes very easy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Post on social media with stakeholder management in mind<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nIt\u2019s really great to hear you, an expert be so pragmatic and sort of tackle these issues because I do feel there\u2019s a lot of pressure to overshare and to share the bad stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in fact, we\u2019ve had guests on this show whose businesses were really struggling and then, it was the founder of White Rabbit Skincare.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
She went on Instagram and basically kind of had her breakdown in public saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to have to close my business. I\u2019ve been throwing everything into this for the last few years and I can\u2019t do it anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the response was enormous. She sold out within 24 hours every product she had went. But then she might feel pressured to keep sharing those kind of moments and sometimes maybe it\u2019ll feel to her like it\u2019s oversharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think that\u2019s really hard for founders to know where to draw those boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nThe issue is that you\u2019re not someone with no responsibilities. You\u2019ve really got to bring into the picture the idea of stakeholder management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The majority of people doing this in a business context have at least 1 person who it matters what they say, and it impacts the other person involved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whether you\u2019re a freelancer and you have a client, you\u2019ve got to think about what you\u2019re saying through how the client perceives it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Or you are the CEO of a 500-person company and you\u2019ve got investors, you\u2019ve got employees, you\u2019ve got partners, you\u2019ve got suppliers. There\u2019s all those kind of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So stakeholder management really does have to come into the pitch with this. And you have to know the balance of, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m comfortable sharing something that\u2019s a bit personal or a bit revealing of the business. How do I do that in the best way given the idea of stakeholder management? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with our team? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with the investors?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is a bit of a complex thing to do. And I\u2019ve seen a couple of instances. I literally saw one this morning of the founder of a fashion brand and she was essentially saying, \u201cI can\u2019t do this anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in my head, I was thinking, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the best thing for you to say. There\u2019s a way to say what you want to say, but you\u2019ve just got to package it in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because what you\u2019ve just posted, yes, a bunch of people on social that follow you and your audience are going to see it, but your team is going to see it and your leadership team is going to see it and your investors are going to see it and what confidence does it give them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes, you\u2019re going through a moment, and they\u2019ll know that you\u2019re going through a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the problem isn\u2019t sharing the moment and being honest and vulnerable if that\u2019s what you want to do. But it\u2019s just being a bit smarter about how you package what you\u2019re saying for it to land in the right way and to balance this idea of stakeholder management in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I get it because business is a very emotional thing, and if you\u2019ve got a voice online, you naturally feel a gravitational pull towards speaking, it helps you. It\u2019s cathartic in a sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I completely understand it, but I do think there is an element of, you\u2019ve got to toe the line and you\u2019ve got to be careful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s about being very tactical. I feel like personal branding in business is very, very, very tactical. Everything has to be thought out, it\u2019s intentional because of those reasons that I just spoke about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sleep on it before sharing something vulnerable<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo would you say if someone is having a moment like that or they would naturally take to social media and say, this is the worst day or something that you should always sit on it for a day? I mean, what\u2019s the best advice when it comes to hitting the pause button in those moments of stress?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I\u2019ve felt it personally. Like I\u2019ve been there, I\u2019ve written the post and then I\u2019ve just sat on it for a couple of days, and I\u2019ve realised that essentially, I just needed to journal a little.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then if I want to take something and share it and I think, \u201cOh, this could actually be quite valuable.\u201d I\u2019ll go back to the journal and figure out what of that is private and what is not private.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I\u2019d say anything that you think is going to be a vulnerability, it\u2019s always worth sitting on it for a couple of days as nothing is ever immediate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then also it\u2019s worth getting somebody else\u2019s outlook on what you\u2019ve said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you trust somebody, run it by them and just sense check things because I think it\u2019s very easy nowadays to just to fire off a thought because you literally just open your phone and press post, you can do it in 15 seconds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that comes with a danger of, especially a lot of entrepreneurs can be quite impulsive and it kind of plays into that. It\u2019s very easy to be impulsive and just shoot something off and then not even think about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And yeah, unfortunately, we\u2019re in a world where your actions tend to have consequences. And I don\u2019t say that to put people off the idea of personal branding, it\u2019s just the reality and there\u2019s great pros and opportunity that come from doing this, but there\u2019s also great cons that come with it as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve got to find the balance between the two. And for me, the idea of personal brand, if you\u2019re in business, it\u2019s the number one most important thing because it feeds everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So that\u2019s the level of importance and ROI and opportunity that you can create from it. There\u2019s a reason why the people at the top of the game are investing so much into this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Like Steven Bartlett has a team, and he spends the majority of his time doing personal brand because it feeds literally everything across his entire business life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you also have to get the balance of knowing the potential pitfalls of what you\u2019re getting into and finding the line with things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I find that the majority of people know where the line is themselves and it\u2019s just making yourself aware and sense checking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Everyone has to start their personal brand journey from zero<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYou mentioned Steven there, we have to ask, how did you end up working together? Tell me a bit about that partnership and how you\u2019ve helped him to become, I mean we can say super brand. He\u2019s a super brand today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I met him in 2012 when he just dropped out of university. He famously did one lecture and dropped out and he had a business idea, and I met him at an event that had nothing to do with business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And we had a mutual friend, and I was about to go to university for 3 years and I wanted to do something else alongside studying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A mutual friend introduced us, Steve was 18, and he said, \u201cOh, Steven\u2019s doing something to do with business.\u201d And we spoke. And then yeah, I started working with him on this idea that he had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that idea took around 2 years to work on. And then that led to Social Chain, which was the agency that he built. And I became part of the founding team at Social Chain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And my job at first was Marketing Director at Social Chain, so I was trying to help the agency market itself and build awareness in the industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that very quickly pivoted to me building\/working on Steve\u2019s personal brand, as we realised that was the best way for Social Chain to drive business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He wasn\u2019t doing personal branding at the time. He started by just doing public speaking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the first year of Social Chain he was doing small events to 15, 20 people. And whenever he did them, it always drove business opportunities for us in a big way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So we sat down at the end of the first year in 2015 and me and Steve had been speaking about something along the lines of making content for a couple of years before that, we just never had a reason to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And now there was a really clear reason to because Social Chain would benefit from it massively. And then that journey started.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was like, \u201cRight, okay, let\u2019s figure this out and start from the ground up.\u201d And I\u2019ve spent 4 years going on that journey with him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the result is Diary Of A CEO.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, it is crazy to think of the journey that he\u2019s gone on. And the interesting thing is, when we sat down to film something for the first time, where we started was video content and we\u2019d film videos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when we sat down for the first time to do it was a 2-and-a-half-minute video and it took 7 hours. He just couldn\u2019t, he knew what he wanted to say, but he\u2019d never done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he was stumbling over his words, we were going over it time and time again, and he was a bit in his own head, overthinking things and all this kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at him now, 10 years later, he\u2019s so incredibly well-versed at the art of being a speaker in different formats and mediums, but it wasn\u2019t always the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally sat in the room for 7 hours to get a 2-minute video, whereas if you ask Steven Bartlett to do a 2-minute video now he does it in one take. There is no second take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there were 50 takes of our first video. So it speaks to the fact that everybody starts somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think again, part of the pressure is that in business, we don\u2019t want people to see us starting from zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But with your personal brand, you don\u2019t have any choice but to be publicly starting from zero, you can\u2019t do it in private, you have to go out into the world and do it in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And unfortunately, you\u2019re starting from zero. And I think people have a big difficulty about their professional network seeing them not be good at something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you have to let people see you not be good at it so you can get good at it. And I think that\u2019s a bit of a barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So whenever I talk about Steve, I always try to use that story of how he started exactly where everybody has to start, at zero. He was just willing to not be good in public for a while to learn how to be good in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Master the psychology of personal branding<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think on selling to people, it\u2019s selling without selling.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take me for example, I run a personal branding agency and the way that I can help the agency get clients is to be somebody who talks about personal brand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I never really say \u201cGreat Influence does this or we do that.\u201d I just talk about personal brand as a subject. And by doing that, it tends to mean further down the line conversations happen that can turn into business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I\u2019ve never really directly sold the work that we do and what we do, I more just talk around the subject of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I think there\u2019s an art to selling without selling and thought leadership is a big part of that. And then the second aspect is do you bring the personality and personal side into it in some sense? And I think it\u2019s a very personal choice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s undoubtedly some benefits from bringing personal elements of who you are into doing this because it helps you to foster and build relationships and build connection with people that they can resonate to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there\u2019s a pressure now to do it that maybe didn\u2019t exist before because a lot more people are doing it. I don\u2019t think that people have to buckle to that pressure.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think the trick to all of this is doing something that you\u2019re really comfortable with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me personally, I try to show up online for the sake of the business. And there\u2019s things I\u2019m not comfortable sharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
For example, professionally for the past 3 months, Great Influence has been amazing. But my personal life has been a mess for the past 3 months. But I\u2019m not choosing to bring that online because I\u2019m not comfortable talking about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If I was, I maybe would figure out how I talk about it, what\u2019s right to talk about and how does it relate to the people that I\u2019m speaking to into the world that I\u2019m sitting in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think you have to be comfortable with what you are doing with the execution of what you\u2019re doing. And the minute that you start doing things you\u2019re not comfortable with is the minute that you lose the consistency that you have to put in to make it all happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I mean, it\u2019s never say never. I\u2019ve seen people go on a journey with this that we\u2019ve worked with and they\u2019ve naturally over time become more confident, more comfortable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They naturally start talking about things wider than they initially started in the first place and their personal lives and all that kind of thing does come into it at times, and they grow the confidence to do that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I just think it\u2019s very much about understanding what you are comfortable with and coupling that with the outcomes that you\u2019re trying to achieve and going, \u201cRight, okay, given what I\u2019m trying to achieve and what I can do and what I\u2019m comfortable with, what\u2019s the execution that ticks those 3 boxes?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you figure out that the consistency part becomes really easy. And I think one of the struggles with personal brand is consistency.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
People can have spurts and moments where they\u2019re very active and they feel on it and all these things, and then all of a sudden, it\u2019s been 2, 3, 4 weeks and they\u2019ve fallen out of the rhythm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it\u2019s because they haven\u2019t found that almost like trifecta and ticking the right boxes. And then I found that the people that do, consistency becomes very easy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Post on social media with stakeholder management in mind<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nIt\u2019s really great to hear you, an expert be so pragmatic and sort of tackle these issues because I do feel there\u2019s a lot of pressure to overshare and to share the bad stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in fact, we\u2019ve had guests on this show whose businesses were really struggling and then, it was the founder of White Rabbit Skincare.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
She went on Instagram and basically kind of had her breakdown in public saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to have to close my business. I\u2019ve been throwing everything into this for the last few years and I can\u2019t do it anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the response was enormous. She sold out within 24 hours every product she had went. But then she might feel pressured to keep sharing those kind of moments and sometimes maybe it\u2019ll feel to her like it\u2019s oversharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think that\u2019s really hard for founders to know where to draw those boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nThe issue is that you\u2019re not someone with no responsibilities. You\u2019ve really got to bring into the picture the idea of stakeholder management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The majority of people doing this in a business context have at least 1 person who it matters what they say, and it impacts the other person involved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whether you\u2019re a freelancer and you have a client, you\u2019ve got to think about what you\u2019re saying through how the client perceives it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Or you are the CEO of a 500-person company and you\u2019ve got investors, you\u2019ve got employees, you\u2019ve got partners, you\u2019ve got suppliers. There\u2019s all those kind of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So stakeholder management really does have to come into the pitch with this. And you have to know the balance of, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m comfortable sharing something that\u2019s a bit personal or a bit revealing of the business. How do I do that in the best way given the idea of stakeholder management? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with our team? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with the investors?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is a bit of a complex thing to do. And I\u2019ve seen a couple of instances. I literally saw one this morning of the founder of a fashion brand and she was essentially saying, \u201cI can\u2019t do this anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in my head, I was thinking, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the best thing for you to say. There\u2019s a way to say what you want to say, but you\u2019ve just got to package it in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because what you\u2019ve just posted, yes, a bunch of people on social that follow you and your audience are going to see it, but your team is going to see it and your leadership team is going to see it and your investors are going to see it and what confidence does it give them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes, you\u2019re going through a moment, and they\u2019ll know that you\u2019re going through a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the problem isn\u2019t sharing the moment and being honest and vulnerable if that\u2019s what you want to do. But it\u2019s just being a bit smarter about how you package what you\u2019re saying for it to land in the right way and to balance this idea of stakeholder management in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I get it because business is a very emotional thing, and if you\u2019ve got a voice online, you naturally feel a gravitational pull towards speaking, it helps you. It\u2019s cathartic in a sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I completely understand it, but I do think there is an element of, you\u2019ve got to toe the line and you\u2019ve got to be careful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s about being very tactical. I feel like personal branding in business is very, very, very tactical. Everything has to be thought out, it\u2019s intentional because of those reasons that I just spoke about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sleep on it before sharing something vulnerable<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo would you say if someone is having a moment like that or they would naturally take to social media and say, this is the worst day or something that you should always sit on it for a day? I mean, what\u2019s the best advice when it comes to hitting the pause button in those moments of stress?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I\u2019ve felt it personally. Like I\u2019ve been there, I\u2019ve written the post and then I\u2019ve just sat on it for a couple of days, and I\u2019ve realised that essentially, I just needed to journal a little.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then if I want to take something and share it and I think, \u201cOh, this could actually be quite valuable.\u201d I\u2019ll go back to the journal and figure out what of that is private and what is not private.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I\u2019d say anything that you think is going to be a vulnerability, it\u2019s always worth sitting on it for a couple of days as nothing is ever immediate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then also it\u2019s worth getting somebody else\u2019s outlook on what you\u2019ve said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you trust somebody, run it by them and just sense check things because I think it\u2019s very easy nowadays to just to fire off a thought because you literally just open your phone and press post, you can do it in 15 seconds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that comes with a danger of, especially a lot of entrepreneurs can be quite impulsive and it kind of plays into that. It\u2019s very easy to be impulsive and just shoot something off and then not even think about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And yeah, unfortunately, we\u2019re in a world where your actions tend to have consequences. And I don\u2019t say that to put people off the idea of personal branding, it\u2019s just the reality and there\u2019s great pros and opportunity that come from doing this, but there\u2019s also great cons that come with it as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve got to find the balance between the two. And for me, the idea of personal brand, if you\u2019re in business, it\u2019s the number one most important thing because it feeds everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So that\u2019s the level of importance and ROI and opportunity that you can create from it. There\u2019s a reason why the people at the top of the game are investing so much into this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Like Steven Bartlett has a team, and he spends the majority of his time doing personal brand because it feeds literally everything across his entire business life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you also have to get the balance of knowing the potential pitfalls of what you\u2019re getting into and finding the line with things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I find that the majority of people know where the line is themselves and it\u2019s just making yourself aware and sense checking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Everyone has to start their personal brand journey from zero<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYou mentioned Steven there, we have to ask, how did you end up working together? Tell me a bit about that partnership and how you\u2019ve helped him to become, I mean we can say super brand. He\u2019s a super brand today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I met him in 2012 when he just dropped out of university. He famously did one lecture and dropped out and he had a business idea, and I met him at an event that had nothing to do with business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And we had a mutual friend, and I was about to go to university for 3 years and I wanted to do something else alongside studying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A mutual friend introduced us, Steve was 18, and he said, \u201cOh, Steven\u2019s doing something to do with business.\u201d And we spoke. And then yeah, I started working with him on this idea that he had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that idea took around 2 years to work on. And then that led to Social Chain, which was the agency that he built. And I became part of the founding team at Social Chain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And my job at first was Marketing Director at Social Chain, so I was trying to help the agency market itself and build awareness in the industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that very quickly pivoted to me building\/working on Steve\u2019s personal brand, as we realised that was the best way for Social Chain to drive business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He wasn\u2019t doing personal branding at the time. He started by just doing public speaking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the first year of Social Chain he was doing small events to 15, 20 people. And whenever he did them, it always drove business opportunities for us in a big way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So we sat down at the end of the first year in 2015 and me and Steve had been speaking about something along the lines of making content for a couple of years before that, we just never had a reason to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And now there was a really clear reason to because Social Chain would benefit from it massively. And then that journey started.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was like, \u201cRight, okay, let\u2019s figure this out and start from the ground up.\u201d And I\u2019ve spent 4 years going on that journey with him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the result is Diary Of A CEO.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, it is crazy to think of the journey that he\u2019s gone on. And the interesting thing is, when we sat down to film something for the first time, where we started was video content and we\u2019d film videos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when we sat down for the first time to do it was a 2-and-a-half-minute video and it took 7 hours. He just couldn\u2019t, he knew what he wanted to say, but he\u2019d never done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he was stumbling over his words, we were going over it time and time again, and he was a bit in his own head, overthinking things and all this kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at him now, 10 years later, he\u2019s so incredibly well-versed at the art of being a speaker in different formats and mediums, but it wasn\u2019t always the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally sat in the room for 7 hours to get a 2-minute video, whereas if you ask Steven Bartlett to do a 2-minute video now he does it in one take. There is no second take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there were 50 takes of our first video. So it speaks to the fact that everybody starts somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think again, part of the pressure is that in business, we don\u2019t want people to see us starting from zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But with your personal brand, you don\u2019t have any choice but to be publicly starting from zero, you can\u2019t do it in private, you have to go out into the world and do it in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And unfortunately, you\u2019re starting from zero. And I think people have a big difficulty about their professional network seeing them not be good at something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you have to let people see you not be good at it so you can get good at it. And I think that\u2019s a bit of a barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So whenever I talk about Steve, I always try to use that story of how he started exactly where everybody has to start, at zero. He was just willing to not be good in public for a while to learn how to be good in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Master the psychology of personal branding<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s really great to hear you, an expert be so pragmatic and sort of tackle these issues because I do feel there\u2019s a lot of pressure to overshare and to share the bad stuff.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in fact, we\u2019ve had guests on this show whose businesses were really struggling and then, it was the founder of White Rabbit Skincare.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
She went on Instagram and basically kind of had her breakdown in public saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to have to close my business. I\u2019ve been throwing everything into this for the last few years and I can\u2019t do it anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the response was enormous. She sold out within 24 hours every product she had went. But then she might feel pressured to keep sharing those kind of moments and sometimes maybe it\u2019ll feel to her like it\u2019s oversharing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think that\u2019s really hard for founders to know where to draw those boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nThe issue is that you\u2019re not someone with no responsibilities. You\u2019ve really got to bring into the picture the idea of stakeholder management.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The majority of people doing this in a business context have at least 1 person who it matters what they say, and it impacts the other person involved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whether you\u2019re a freelancer and you have a client, you\u2019ve got to think about what you\u2019re saying through how the client perceives it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Or you are the CEO of a 500-person company and you\u2019ve got investors, you\u2019ve got employees, you\u2019ve got partners, you\u2019ve got suppliers. There\u2019s all those kind of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So stakeholder management really does have to come into the pitch with this. And you have to know the balance of, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m comfortable sharing something that\u2019s a bit personal or a bit revealing of the business. How do I do that in the best way given the idea of stakeholder management? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with our team? What can I say that\u2019s going to toe the right line with the investors?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is a bit of a complex thing to do. And I\u2019ve seen a couple of instances. I literally saw one this morning of the founder of a fashion brand and she was essentially saying, \u201cI can\u2019t do this anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in my head, I was thinking, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the best thing for you to say. There\u2019s a way to say what you want to say, but you\u2019ve just got to package it in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because what you\u2019ve just posted, yes, a bunch of people on social that follow you and your audience are going to see it, but your team is going to see it and your leadership team is going to see it and your investors are going to see it and what confidence does it give them?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes, you\u2019re going through a moment, and they\u2019ll know that you\u2019re going through a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the problem isn\u2019t sharing the moment and being honest and vulnerable if that\u2019s what you want to do. But it\u2019s just being a bit smarter about how you package what you\u2019re saying for it to land in the right way and to balance this idea of stakeholder management in the right way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I get it because business is a very emotional thing, and if you\u2019ve got a voice online, you naturally feel a gravitational pull towards speaking, it helps you. It\u2019s cathartic in a sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I completely understand it, but I do think there is an element of, you\u2019ve got to toe the line and you\u2019ve got to be careful.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s about being very tactical. I feel like personal branding in business is very, very, very tactical. Everything has to be thought out, it\u2019s intentional because of those reasons that I just spoke about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sleep on it before sharing something vulnerable<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo would you say if someone is having a moment like that or they would naturally take to social media and say, this is the worst day or something that you should always sit on it for a day? I mean, what\u2019s the best advice when it comes to hitting the pause button in those moments of stress?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I\u2019ve felt it personally. Like I\u2019ve been there, I\u2019ve written the post and then I\u2019ve just sat on it for a couple of days, and I\u2019ve realised that essentially, I just needed to journal a little.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then if I want to take something and share it and I think, \u201cOh, this could actually be quite valuable.\u201d I\u2019ll go back to the journal and figure out what of that is private and what is not private.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I\u2019d say anything that you think is going to be a vulnerability, it\u2019s always worth sitting on it for a couple of days as nothing is ever immediate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then also it\u2019s worth getting somebody else\u2019s outlook on what you\u2019ve said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you trust somebody, run it by them and just sense check things because I think it\u2019s very easy nowadays to just to fire off a thought because you literally just open your phone and press post, you can do it in 15 seconds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that comes with a danger of, especially a lot of entrepreneurs can be quite impulsive and it kind of plays into that. It\u2019s very easy to be impulsive and just shoot something off and then not even think about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And yeah, unfortunately, we\u2019re in a world where your actions tend to have consequences. And I don\u2019t say that to put people off the idea of personal branding, it\u2019s just the reality and there\u2019s great pros and opportunity that come from doing this, but there\u2019s also great cons that come with it as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve got to find the balance between the two. And for me, the idea of personal brand, if you\u2019re in business, it\u2019s the number one most important thing because it feeds everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So that\u2019s the level of importance and ROI and opportunity that you can create from it. There\u2019s a reason why the people at the top of the game are investing so much into this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Like Steven Bartlett has a team, and he spends the majority of his time doing personal brand because it feeds literally everything across his entire business life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you also have to get the balance of knowing the potential pitfalls of what you\u2019re getting into and finding the line with things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I find that the majority of people know where the line is themselves and it\u2019s just making yourself aware and sense checking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Everyone has to start their personal brand journey from zero<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYou mentioned Steven there, we have to ask, how did you end up working together? Tell me a bit about that partnership and how you\u2019ve helped him to become, I mean we can say super brand. He\u2019s a super brand today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I met him in 2012 when he just dropped out of university. He famously did one lecture and dropped out and he had a business idea, and I met him at an event that had nothing to do with business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And we had a mutual friend, and I was about to go to university for 3 years and I wanted to do something else alongside studying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A mutual friend introduced us, Steve was 18, and he said, \u201cOh, Steven\u2019s doing something to do with business.\u201d And we spoke. And then yeah, I started working with him on this idea that he had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that idea took around 2 years to work on. And then that led to Social Chain, which was the agency that he built. And I became part of the founding team at Social Chain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And my job at first was Marketing Director at Social Chain, so I was trying to help the agency market itself and build awareness in the industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that very quickly pivoted to me building\/working on Steve\u2019s personal brand, as we realised that was the best way for Social Chain to drive business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He wasn\u2019t doing personal branding at the time. He started by just doing public speaking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the first year of Social Chain he was doing small events to 15, 20 people. And whenever he did them, it always drove business opportunities for us in a big way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So we sat down at the end of the first year in 2015 and me and Steve had been speaking about something along the lines of making content for a couple of years before that, we just never had a reason to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And now there was a really clear reason to because Social Chain would benefit from it massively. And then that journey started.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was like, \u201cRight, okay, let\u2019s figure this out and start from the ground up.\u201d And I\u2019ve spent 4 years going on that journey with him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the result is Diary Of A CEO.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, it is crazy to think of the journey that he\u2019s gone on. And the interesting thing is, when we sat down to film something for the first time, where we started was video content and we\u2019d film videos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when we sat down for the first time to do it was a 2-and-a-half-minute video and it took 7 hours. He just couldn\u2019t, he knew what he wanted to say, but he\u2019d never done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he was stumbling over his words, we were going over it time and time again, and he was a bit in his own head, overthinking things and all this kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at him now, 10 years later, he\u2019s so incredibly well-versed at the art of being a speaker in different formats and mediums, but it wasn\u2019t always the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally sat in the room for 7 hours to get a 2-minute video, whereas if you ask Steven Bartlett to do a 2-minute video now he does it in one take. There is no second take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there were 50 takes of our first video. So it speaks to the fact that everybody starts somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think again, part of the pressure is that in business, we don\u2019t want people to see us starting from zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But with your personal brand, you don\u2019t have any choice but to be publicly starting from zero, you can\u2019t do it in private, you have to go out into the world and do it in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And unfortunately, you\u2019re starting from zero. And I think people have a big difficulty about their professional network seeing them not be good at something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you have to let people see you not be good at it so you can get good at it. And I think that\u2019s a bit of a barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So whenever I talk about Steve, I always try to use that story of how he started exactly where everybody has to start, at zero. He was just willing to not be good in public for a while to learn how to be good in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Master the psychology of personal branding<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo would you say if someone is having a moment like that or they would naturally take to social media and say, this is the worst day or something that you should always sit on it for a day? I mean, what\u2019s the best advice when it comes to hitting the pause button in those moments of stress?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I\u2019ve felt it personally. Like I\u2019ve been there, I\u2019ve written the post and then I\u2019ve just sat on it for a couple of days, and I\u2019ve realised that essentially, I just needed to journal a little.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then if I want to take something and share it and I think, \u201cOh, this could actually be quite valuable.\u201d I\u2019ll go back to the journal and figure out what of that is private and what is not private.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I\u2019d say anything that you think is going to be a vulnerability, it\u2019s always worth sitting on it for a couple of days as nothing is ever immediate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then also it\u2019s worth getting somebody else\u2019s outlook on what you\u2019ve said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you trust somebody, run it by them and just sense check things because I think it\u2019s very easy nowadays to just to fire off a thought because you literally just open your phone and press post, you can do it in 15 seconds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that comes with a danger of, especially a lot of entrepreneurs can be quite impulsive and it kind of plays into that. It\u2019s very easy to be impulsive and just shoot something off and then not even think about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And yeah, unfortunately, we\u2019re in a world where your actions tend to have consequences. And I don\u2019t say that to put people off the idea of personal branding, it\u2019s just the reality and there\u2019s great pros and opportunity that come from doing this, but there\u2019s also great cons that come with it as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve got to find the balance between the two. And for me, the idea of personal brand, if you\u2019re in business, it\u2019s the number one most important thing because it feeds everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So that\u2019s the level of importance and ROI and opportunity that you can create from it. There\u2019s a reason why the people at the top of the game are investing so much into this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Like Steven Bartlett has a team, and he spends the majority of his time doing personal brand because it feeds literally everything across his entire business life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you also have to get the balance of knowing the potential pitfalls of what you\u2019re getting into and finding the line with things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I find that the majority of people know where the line is themselves and it\u2019s just making yourself aware and sense checking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Everyone has to start their personal brand journey from zero<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYou mentioned Steven there, we have to ask, how did you end up working together? Tell me a bit about that partnership and how you\u2019ve helped him to become, I mean we can say super brand. He\u2019s a super brand today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I met him in 2012 when he just dropped out of university. He famously did one lecture and dropped out and he had a business idea, and I met him at an event that had nothing to do with business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And we had a mutual friend, and I was about to go to university for 3 years and I wanted to do something else alongside studying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A mutual friend introduced us, Steve was 18, and he said, \u201cOh, Steven\u2019s doing something to do with business.\u201d And we spoke. And then yeah, I started working with him on this idea that he had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that idea took around 2 years to work on. And then that led to Social Chain, which was the agency that he built. And I became part of the founding team at Social Chain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And my job at first was Marketing Director at Social Chain, so I was trying to help the agency market itself and build awareness in the industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that very quickly pivoted to me building\/working on Steve\u2019s personal brand, as we realised that was the best way for Social Chain to drive business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He wasn\u2019t doing personal branding at the time. He started by just doing public speaking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the first year of Social Chain he was doing small events to 15, 20 people. And whenever he did them, it always drove business opportunities for us in a big way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So we sat down at the end of the first year in 2015 and me and Steve had been speaking about something along the lines of making content for a couple of years before that, we just never had a reason to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And now there was a really clear reason to because Social Chain would benefit from it massively. And then that journey started.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was like, \u201cRight, okay, let\u2019s figure this out and start from the ground up.\u201d And I\u2019ve spent 4 years going on that journey with him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the result is Diary Of A CEO.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, it is crazy to think of the journey that he\u2019s gone on. And the interesting thing is, when we sat down to film something for the first time, where we started was video content and we\u2019d film videos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when we sat down for the first time to do it was a 2-and-a-half-minute video and it took 7 hours. He just couldn\u2019t, he knew what he wanted to say, but he\u2019d never done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he was stumbling over his words, we were going over it time and time again, and he was a bit in his own head, overthinking things and all this kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at him now, 10 years later, he\u2019s so incredibly well-versed at the art of being a speaker in different formats and mediums, but it wasn\u2019t always the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally sat in the room for 7 hours to get a 2-minute video, whereas if you ask Steven Bartlett to do a 2-minute video now he does it in one take. There is no second take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there were 50 takes of our first video. So it speaks to the fact that everybody starts somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think again, part of the pressure is that in business, we don\u2019t want people to see us starting from zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But with your personal brand, you don\u2019t have any choice but to be publicly starting from zero, you can\u2019t do it in private, you have to go out into the world and do it in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And unfortunately, you\u2019re starting from zero. And I think people have a big difficulty about their professional network seeing them not be good at something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you have to let people see you not be good at it so you can get good at it. And I think that\u2019s a bit of a barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So whenever I talk about Steve, I always try to use that story of how he started exactly where everybody has to start, at zero. He was just willing to not be good in public for a while to learn how to be good in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Master the psychology of personal branding<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, I\u2019ve felt it personally. Like I\u2019ve been there, I\u2019ve written the post and then I\u2019ve just sat on it for a couple of days, and I\u2019ve realised that essentially, I just needed to journal a little.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then if I want to take something and share it and I think, \u201cOh, this could actually be quite valuable.\u201d I\u2019ll go back to the journal and figure out what of that is private and what is not private.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So yeah, I\u2019d say anything that you think is going to be a vulnerability, it\u2019s always worth sitting on it for a couple of days as nothing is ever immediate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then also it\u2019s worth getting somebody else\u2019s outlook on what you\u2019ve said.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you trust somebody, run it by them and just sense check things because I think it\u2019s very easy nowadays to just to fire off a thought because you literally just open your phone and press post, you can do it in 15 seconds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that comes with a danger of, especially a lot of entrepreneurs can be quite impulsive and it kind of plays into that. It\u2019s very easy to be impulsive and just shoot something off and then not even think about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And yeah, unfortunately, we\u2019re in a world where your actions tend to have consequences. And I don\u2019t say that to put people off the idea of personal branding, it\u2019s just the reality and there\u2019s great pros and opportunity that come from doing this, but there\u2019s also great cons that come with it as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve got to find the balance between the two. And for me, the idea of personal brand, if you\u2019re in business, it\u2019s the number one most important thing because it feeds everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So that\u2019s the level of importance and ROI and opportunity that you can create from it. There\u2019s a reason why the people at the top of the game are investing so much into this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Like Steven Bartlett has a team, and he spends the majority of his time doing personal brand because it feeds literally everything across his entire business life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you also have to get the balance of knowing the potential pitfalls of what you\u2019re getting into and finding the line with things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I find that the majority of people know where the line is themselves and it\u2019s just making yourself aware and sense checking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Everyone has to start their personal brand journey from zero<\/em><\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYou mentioned Steven there, we have to ask, how did you end up working together? Tell me a bit about that partnership and how you\u2019ve helped him to become, I mean we can say super brand. He\u2019s a super brand today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I met him in 2012 when he just dropped out of university. He famously did one lecture and dropped out and he had a business idea, and I met him at an event that had nothing to do with business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And we had a mutual friend, and I was about to go to university for 3 years and I wanted to do something else alongside studying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A mutual friend introduced us, Steve was 18, and he said, \u201cOh, Steven\u2019s doing something to do with business.\u201d And we spoke. And then yeah, I started working with him on this idea that he had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that idea took around 2 years to work on. And then that led to Social Chain, which was the agency that he built. And I became part of the founding team at Social Chain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And my job at first was Marketing Director at Social Chain, so I was trying to help the agency market itself and build awareness in the industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that very quickly pivoted to me building\/working on Steve\u2019s personal brand, as we realised that was the best way for Social Chain to drive business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He wasn\u2019t doing personal branding at the time. He started by just doing public speaking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the first year of Social Chain he was doing small events to 15, 20 people. And whenever he did them, it always drove business opportunities for us in a big way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So we sat down at the end of the first year in 2015 and me and Steve had been speaking about something along the lines of making content for a couple of years before that, we just never had a reason to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And now there was a really clear reason to because Social Chain would benefit from it massively. And then that journey started.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was like, \u201cRight, okay, let\u2019s figure this out and start from the ground up.\u201d And I\u2019ve spent 4 years going on that journey with him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the result is Diary Of A CEO.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, it is crazy to think of the journey that he\u2019s gone on. And the interesting thing is, when we sat down to film something for the first time, where we started was video content and we\u2019d film videos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when we sat down for the first time to do it was a 2-and-a-half-minute video and it took 7 hours. He just couldn\u2019t, he knew what he wanted to say, but he\u2019d never done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he was stumbling over his words, we were going over it time and time again, and he was a bit in his own head, overthinking things and all this kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at him now, 10 years later, he\u2019s so incredibly well-versed at the art of being a speaker in different formats and mediums, but it wasn\u2019t always the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally sat in the room for 7 hours to get a 2-minute video, whereas if you ask Steven Bartlett to do a 2-minute video now he does it in one take. There is no second take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there were 50 takes of our first video. So it speaks to the fact that everybody starts somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think again, part of the pressure is that in business, we don\u2019t want people to see us starting from zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But with your personal brand, you don\u2019t have any choice but to be publicly starting from zero, you can\u2019t do it in private, you have to go out into the world and do it in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And unfortunately, you\u2019re starting from zero. And I think people have a big difficulty about their professional network seeing them not be good at something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you have to let people see you not be good at it so you can get good at it. And I think that\u2019s a bit of a barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So whenever I talk about Steve, I always try to use that story of how he started exactly where everybody has to start, at zero. He was just willing to not be good in public for a while to learn how to be good in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Master the psychology of personal branding<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You mentioned Steven there, we have to ask, how did you end up working together? Tell me a bit about that partnership and how you\u2019ve helped him to become, I mean we can say super brand. He\u2019s a super brand today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I met him in 2012 when he just dropped out of university. He famously did one lecture and dropped out and he had a business idea, and I met him at an event that had nothing to do with business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And we had a mutual friend, and I was about to go to university for 3 years and I wanted to do something else alongside studying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A mutual friend introduced us, Steve was 18, and he said, \u201cOh, Steven\u2019s doing something to do with business.\u201d And we spoke. And then yeah, I started working with him on this idea that he had.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that idea took around 2 years to work on. And then that led to Social Chain, which was the agency that he built. And I became part of the founding team at Social Chain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And my job at first was Marketing Director at Social Chain, so I was trying to help the agency market itself and build awareness in the industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that very quickly pivoted to me building\/working on Steve\u2019s personal brand, as we realised that was the best way for Social Chain to drive business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He wasn\u2019t doing personal branding at the time. He started by just doing public speaking.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the first year of Social Chain he was doing small events to 15, 20 people. And whenever he did them, it always drove business opportunities for us in a big way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So we sat down at the end of the first year in 2015 and me and Steve had been speaking about something along the lines of making content for a couple of years before that, we just never had a reason to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And now there was a really clear reason to because Social Chain would benefit from it massively. And then that journey started.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It was like, \u201cRight, okay, let\u2019s figure this out and start from the ground up.\u201d And I\u2019ve spent 4 years going on that journey with him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the result is Diary Of A CEO.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, it is crazy to think of the journey that he\u2019s gone on. And the interesting thing is, when we sat down to film something for the first time, where we started was video content and we\u2019d film videos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when we sat down for the first time to do it was a 2-and-a-half-minute video and it took 7 hours. He just couldn\u2019t, he knew what he wanted to say, but he\u2019d never done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he was stumbling over his words, we were going over it time and time again, and he was a bit in his own head, overthinking things and all this kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at him now, 10 years later, he\u2019s so incredibly well-versed at the art of being a speaker in different formats and mediums, but it wasn\u2019t always the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally sat in the room for 7 hours to get a 2-minute video, whereas if you ask Steven Bartlett to do a 2-minute video now he does it in one take. There is no second take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there were 50 takes of our first video. So it speaks to the fact that everybody starts somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think again, part of the pressure is that in business, we don\u2019t want people to see us starting from zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But with your personal brand, you don\u2019t have any choice but to be publicly starting from zero, you can\u2019t do it in private, you have to go out into the world and do it in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And unfortunately, you\u2019re starting from zero. And I think people have a big difficulty about their professional network seeing them not be good at something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you have to let people see you not be good at it so you can get good at it. And I think that\u2019s a bit of a barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So whenever I talk about Steve, I always try to use that story of how he started exactly where everybody has to start, at zero. He was just willing to not be good in public for a while to learn how to be good in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Master the psychology of personal branding<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the result is Diary Of A CEO.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, it is crazy to think of the journey that he\u2019s gone on. And the interesting thing is, when we sat down to film something for the first time, where we started was video content and we\u2019d film videos.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And when we sat down for the first time to do it was a 2-and-a-half-minute video and it took 7 hours. He just couldn\u2019t, he knew what he wanted to say, but he\u2019d never done it before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he was stumbling over his words, we were going over it time and time again, and he was a bit in his own head, overthinking things and all this kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at him now, 10 years later, he\u2019s so incredibly well-versed at the art of being a speaker in different formats and mediums, but it wasn\u2019t always the case.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I literally sat in the room for 7 hours to get a 2-minute video, whereas if you ask Steven Bartlett to do a 2-minute video now he does it in one take. There is no second take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there were 50 takes of our first video. So it speaks to the fact that everybody starts somewhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think again, part of the pressure is that in business, we don\u2019t want people to see us starting from zero.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But with your personal brand, you don\u2019t have any choice but to be publicly starting from zero, you can\u2019t do it in private, you have to go out into the world and do it in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And unfortunately, you\u2019re starting from zero. And I think people have a big difficulty about their professional network seeing them not be good at something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But you have to let people see you not be good at it so you can get good at it. And I think that\u2019s a bit of a barrier.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So whenever I talk about Steve, I always try to use that story of how he started exactly where everybody has to start, at zero. He was just willing to not be good in public for a while to learn how to be good in public.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Master the psychology of personal branding<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd then what does he get so right now, why has he become such, I guess, a business icon? Because yes there\u2019s practicing and being able to deliver a 2-minute clip in 2 minutes, but in terms of how he comes across, I guess the feelings he engenders in the people that are watching or listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What is he getting right? What is it that\u2019s so crucially on target with his personal brand?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, I think of all the things that he\u2019s really great at in terms of a thinking mind on a subject matter, personal brand for me is the thing that he\u2019s best at.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How he thinks about it is a step above the majority of people that I\u2019ve seen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it has nothing to do with social media, it has nothing to do with content. It has everything to do with how you position yourself, and how you create the right perception of your image and identity in others. So that\u2019s social proofing, reputation, trust building, and influence building, all the psychological and branding aspects of personal brand. And his lens on that is really, really strong.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And one of the examples that I use to explain this is, when we were at Social Chain, he had a videographer, he did a daily vlog for the agency and the videographer would follow him around everywhere.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019d do a speaking event and before he did his talk, he\u2019d walk around the room and then he\u2019d find a certain spot and he\u2019d ask the videographer to come over and he\u2019d be like, \u201cRight, if you set up the camera here, the room is going to look the fullest and you\u2019re going to get the best shot of me on stage.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s that kind of thinking of presenting yourself in the right way and trying to really craft how you\u2019re perceived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the people that I\u2019ve worked with that really understand this are always thinking, \u201cHow do I present myself to the world and how do I out from a crowd? And how do I bring the me that exists offline into the online, and how do I take the offline me and package it and present it in the right way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think even now he\u2019s got even better at the art of that. And it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a podcast, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of a social clip, it\u2019s presented to us in the form of Dragon\u2019s Den as a programme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But if you actually look under the hood of that, it\u2019s all the fundamentals that I spoke about there, and they\u2019re just being delivered in certain mediums and certain formats. So it\u2019s focusing on those things, that is the art of it to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Keep your audience engaged by evolving your identity<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the consistency, I suppose, where you\u2019re continually reinforcing what people think you stand for, what people know that you want to talk about or have experience of, you just keep returning to those themes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you\u2019ve got to evolve as well. And what I really like is how music and musicians and artists have really leveraged this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you look at the music industry, it\u2019s so perfectly set up for somebody to build a personal brand in that there\u2019s almost an expectation that you have to evolve to survive within the music industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas in business, take Gary Vaynerchuk, he\u2019s kind of been the same thing for 15 years now, and there\u2019s not an expectation or a culture of evolving your image and identity that exists within music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if you look at David Bowie for example, there\u2019s a really great image on, if you Google \u2018David Bowie evolution\u2019, it\u2019ll come up and it\u2019s like 40 different versions of David Bowie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he always had a different identity in how he looked, how he sounded, how the music sounded, how he presented himself, he constantly evolved throughout different eras and periods.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Elton John is the same, Beyonce is the same. Think of anyone who\u2019s had longevity in music over decades. They\u2019ve really, really mastered the art of evolving their own identity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s because you have to in music, if you deliver the same album 3 times, the sales start to go down and people want something new and something fresh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You see it in a band like the Arctic Monkeys, how they went from this Sheffield-based lad band on album 1 to album 5 being this like LA rock and roll leather jacket, slicked hair.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They had to evolve because if they delivered the lads from Sheffield on a night out 4 or 5 times, people aren\u2019t interested anymore.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So there\u2019s a pressure and expectation and the culture of music is set up, if you\u2019re going to be successful as an artist, to evolve your image and identity and how you come across the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that doesn\u2019t really exist in business. And I think that\u2019s a great thing to take away from it, is you have to always be evolving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you look at Steve, it\u2019s one of the things that he\u2019s done really well. If anyone followed him in the early days of building Social Chain, before people knew his name, people referred to him as the guy in the hat because he wore this fedora hat on stage.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was the first evolution of the Steven Bartlett\u2019s personal brand. It had a look. He talked about certain topics that he doesn\u2019t talk about now, he came across in a certain way and he did certain things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then he evolved that, and he evolved it again. And now he wears all black, he has Diary Of A CEO, it has distinctive branding and the Huel Association. There\u2019s an image that you can build.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you look back over the 10 years of Steven Bartlett and he\u2019s gone through multiple phases and understood this idea that you have to evolve and push the boundaries.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I even think with Diary Of A CEO, you look at that and it was a podcast, and he took it live to theatres. And naturally, you would just take the podcast and put it in a theatre, and it\u2019d be a live podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he didn\u2019t do that. He made it like a musical, a theatre show. It was like a play at times. It was a hybrid of different things to create something different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think it speaks to his ability to understand that you have to evolve the medium and evolve your identity to keep people interested and engaged.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes it doesn\u2019t work and sometimes it does work. And I think looking at music artists is a really great inspiration that you can take.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Be selfish\u2014post content you\u2019re passionate about<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd it should be a relief that you have to evolve because there\u2019s nothing worse than having to talk about the same thing constantly. I mean, you get bored, let alone your audience.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So the idea that what you\u2019re talking about this year might not be what you\u2019re focusing on in a couple of years should be a relief and something to be excited about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nYeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, I think you really have to keep yourself excited. Again, consistency is the game here. And the trick to consistency is to stay engaged and excited, and if you\u2019re not excited, nobody else can be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So it has to be a very selfish act, I think. And I\u2019d imagine the same thing exists in music, they say with songwriters, \u201cDon\u2019t write for the audience, write for yourself.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The minute that you\u2019re not writing for yourself is the minute that you start to stagnate and become bored, and you start producing things that aren\u2019t great, and the audience don\u2019t connect to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s a very selfish thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And in business, if you\u2019re going to create a personal brand, it has to be from a selfish point of view, it\u2019s like, \u201cDo I find this interesting? Do I want to talk about it? Is it challenging me to think in a different way?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And all too often people can phone it in, they can get their marketing team to send them a report and it\u2019s like, \u201cJust take this from the report and post it.\u201d And they\u2019re not really interested in, it\u2019s very passive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s no surprise that those are the people who tend to have zero consistency in doing this, and they don\u2019t make great strides.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas if you ask the people who have made something great of it, they\u2019re very passionate about it and it keeps them engaged, it\u2019s stimulating them and it\u2019s developing their thinking. And it\u2019s a big personal development journey I found as well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
AI can\u2019t build your personal brand\u2014it\u2019ll make you sound generic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that point about not being passive, we hear a lot now about AI and people using AI to craft posts to kind of craft a personal brand, but does that count as sort of being a bit too passive and not taking the lead, not being authentic, or is that the way of the future? Is AI going to be our partner when we\u2019re building our brands?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it will undoubtedly play a supporting role, but it has to be your personality that you\u2019re bringing to the table. And right now, AI is making you sound like everyone else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In the future, that\u2019s probably not going to be the case, where the conversation around AI and personal brand completely changes, but right now it\u2019s not making you stand out from anybody else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s almost like a bit of a red herring because you think that you\u2019re using it to build your personal brand because it\u2019s helping you do it consistently, but it\u2019s not helping you do it well, it\u2019s just helping you do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019m a very big believer in the idea of understanding yourself and then bringing that to the table and staying really guard-railed around who you are and what you\u2019re about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And really in business, I think we\u2019re trading on a couple of things in terms of building reputation and influence and authority with people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it tends to be stories and ideas, like our story and the story of what we\u2019re doing in business and what we\u2019re experiencing can be one tool that we leverage to build reputation and influence and authority.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then our thoughts, opinions, and ideas is the other thing. And the thoughts, ideas and opinions, you can\u2019t AI them, they have to come from you and they\u2019re not easy to come from you either.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like you have to go through the process of iteration 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 before you get to the good idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think somebody like Rory Sutherland is a great example, he trades on the power and strength of his ideas and that\u2019s what gives him authority, reputation, and influence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if Rory Sutherland used AI to do that, he wouldn\u2019t be Rory Sutherland, he\u2019d be trading at a much lower level than everybody else, but it\u2019s because he takes the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would love to know how much time he puts into developing those ideas because I think it\u2019ll be a lot more than people expect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you see it with authors, they have to take a lot of time to develop the books that they write, and this is no different. And we\u2019re in the business of trading ideas and thoughts and opinions and you can\u2019t phone those in. You have to put in the work to get to them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Building a successful personal brand requires strong support<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nSo are there no shortcuts? I was going to ask you about the hacks you can use to kickstart your personal brand, but if you can\u2019t really rely on AI and you have to put in the time and the thought to come up with the original concepts and ideas, then does that mean that there are no hacks?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You just have to set boundaries around a certain period of time every day or twice a week and just devote that to this particular intentional activity?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think the hack for me is just support, rather than something to gain a system or hack the process. It\u2019s just support to be able to do it. So no army is built alone kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take business for example. It\u2019s very, very, very rare that you get a business that is truly successful in reaching great heights just off 1 person alone. It takes multiple people to be able to do it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the same thing here, within a business if you\u2019re going to do marketing, it\u2019s not just 1 person. It\u2019s a number of brains coming together to make that happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I was at an event yesterday and they were talking about how one of the issues is that marketing is left to 1 person, and it never should be. And that\u2019s why companies don\u2019t get ahead in their marketing is because it\u2019s usually left to 1 person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And with personal brand, it\u2019s very rare that I\u2019ve seen somebody who is operating in isolation be able to do it very, very well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And there\u2019s a number of different ways of what support means and looks like, but I genuinely believe that you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You need somebody to be helping you, whether it\u2019s planning, creating, ideating, feeding back and observing, auditing and reporting. There are multiple ways that support can help. And I think that for me is the hack.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It is really hard work and the people who create a competitive advantage in business are the ones who put in the hard work, but you find they\u2019re never operating alone, there\u2019s always support around them to help make that possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because you\u2019re dealing with people that are running businesses here, they\u2019re very time poor people and you have to create the right ecosystem to enable them to build a personal brand and make it fit within everything that they need to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it is possible, I\u2019ve seen it. Having worked with Steven Bartlett and Gary Neville, they\u2019re two of the busiest people that I\u2019ve ever met, and they make it happen at scale, and they make it happen really, really well.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s the support around them and their own drive and them putting the priority and time in needed and all that brought together that makes it possible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Your personal brand must come from you to be authentic<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I guess you can either have a really great team around you which limits the amount of time you\u2019re spending on it, even if you have to spend some time, you have this supporting cast or you do have to invest a lot of your own time. There\u2019s no middle ground. It\u2019s either you pay for talent to support or you sacrifice your own time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI just think it\u2019s like anything else in business, you have to learn to delegate. If you are the founder or CEO, you can\u2019t be the executor too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s your vision and it\u2019s your ideas and you\u2019re setting the direction a lot of the time. And it\u2019s the same thing with personal brand, but we get it confused because it\u2019s us. Like I am the individual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas with marketing, you can disconnect emotionally, and it can just be tactical and it\u2019s still your vision. You set the direction, you give the feedback, you go, \u201cThis is where we need to go, this is working, this isn\u2019t.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But other people tend to be the ones that are helping you execute. And I think with the idea of support as well, it\u2019s getting the balance right. What you don\u2019t want to do is pass it off to somebody else because that\u2019s not going to work because you\u2019re not getting an authentic representation of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re getting a watered down version of you. If it\u2019s somebody else\u2019s responsibility to be you, it never ever works.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas really, it\u2019s finding the right process, the right ecosystem, the right way of working, that means that you can show up in a way that\u2019s scalable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because the minute that it\u2019s passed off to somebody else, in a way that means someone else comes up with the idea because you haven\u2019t got the time, is where it becomes unauthentic and not truly representative.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s just not as good because that person is not you. It\u2019s you that\u2019s in the hot seat, it\u2019s your ideas and your opinions, your thoughts, your stories, your lessons, that people care about.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s where the gold is, and I think again, too often you could work with somebody in your team or externally and they can put words into your mouth, or it\u2019s their responsibility to come up with the idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it\u2019s never going to work from what I\u2019ve experienced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Skip the growth hacks\u2014craft your personal brand the right way<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut what about when it comes to building your personal brand? Because you said at the beginning of the call, \u201cI like to be the guy behind the camera. I like to be the one that\u2019s like doing the editing and the directing and working on the strategy. I don\u2019t want to be front and centre.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But obviously for you, you also have to show that you can do this for yourself. So how have you found that process and is it much harder doing it for yourself than for your clients?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think it\u2019s harder doing it for yourself than it is for clients because you\u2019ve got the emotional connection, and you bottleneck yourself as a result.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But it\u2019s teaching me something different that I wasn\u2019t getting from clients because I am not Steven Bartlett and I\u2019m not Gary Neville, but I do have a responsibility to show up for the business that I run and try to figure out how I can become an influential voice within my industry.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And how do I go about that as somebody who wasn\u2019t somebody to do this in the first place? I think I\u2019ve seen myself go on the journey over the past few years of finding the confidence and understanding of what my position is in the world and being very clear on what my guard-rails are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think I\u2019m at a point where I\u2019m starting to see my approach to personal branding start to pay off for myself. Like with clients that we work with, I\u2019m very much like you don\u2019t have to be everything to everyone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You actually have to be quite targeted and intentional in the voice that you\u2019re trying to build and who you\u2019re trying to be in the world.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And sometimes that means avoiding talking about some things and just sticking to a certain lane for a certain period of time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve stuck to the lane of personal branding for a few years now and it\u2019s starting to create the right opportunity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019m not just building an audience on social media that results in nothing. I\u2019m seeing the real-world opportunities as a result of sticking to my guns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I\u2019ve had to be quite disciplined and avoid doing things that I know could, quote on quote, \u201cperform better\u201d, for the sake of believing in doing the right thing to create the opportunity I\u2019m looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I know how to make people go viral. It\u2019s so easy. It\u2019s so easy. Give me 6 months, and I can get anyone 100,000 followers, probably faster. But that\u2019s not going to result in anything for them past the number on their social media page.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And for me, it\u2019s like you\u2019ve got to take the slow hard route of avoiding fast growth and hacking the system and doing content that\u2019s not right for you, but it just works on social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you\u2019ve instead got to do the longer process of figuring out who you\u2019re trying to be in the world, how you show up in the right way, and generate the outcomes that you\u2019re looking for.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And the difference is that you\u2019re not a flash in the pan. You don\u2019t have one year where you are popular and then you disappear forever. You slowly over time build a sustainable career.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I think a really great example of that is Daniel Priestley. So I got his book in 2015 and it\u2019s called Key Person of Influence and it\u2019s essentially around the idea of personal branding.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So he\u2019s been around for 10 years now to my knowledge, but in the last 12 months, he\u2019s really having a moment.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
He went on Diary Of A CEO, he\u2019s doing more speaking, he\u2019s on more podcasts, he\u2019s on more media, and his own socials are growing. And he\u2019s somebody who is just kind of stuck to his niche and understands what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And he\u2019s just put in 10 years. And that to me is like, \u201cThat\u2019s the game that you\u2019re playing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nWe say it all the time on this show, it takes 10 years to build an overnight success. Like the people that you see, and you think, \u201cWow, where did they come from?\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
They\u2019ve actually been plugging away doing this, building their reputations for an awfully long time before they become the overnight success.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Take comfort in the fact that everyone gets nervous<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nBut I wanted to just come back to what you said a moment ago about on this journey you learned to build your own confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can you tell me about any moments that made you feel like you were saying the right things, and that it was resonating with people? What were those little markers in your journey that you read as, \u201cOkay, this is right for me and I\u2019m actually doing something worthwhile with my time\u201d?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think there were 2 or maybe 3 and one of them is 2 in 1, so I\u2019ll explain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first one is when Gary Neville went on Have I Got News for You maybe 18 months ago now, and he\u2019s been doing TV for a decade. So he is very well versed in TV, but he\u2019s used to live TV on Sky Sports and Have I Got News for You was autocues.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And beforehand, he\u2019d never done that before. So it was a new thing for him, even though he\u2019d done TV but he filmed this little video in the green room beforehand saying, \u201cI\u2019m actually nervous. I\u2019ve never done this before. And I just wanted to share that even after 10 years in TV, this happens.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that was just a very comforting thing to know. The same nerves that I have of showing up in my little way are the exact same nerves that Gary has showing up in his way on national television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It always exists. You\u2019re never going to get rid of the feeling, you\u2019re always going to feel uncomfortable, but the people that do this well will acknowledge that. They sit with the feeling, they let it happen, and they do it anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I saw the same thing happen with Steve when he went on TV for the first time. And how he felt beforehand versus what he had to do in front of the camera were two different things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And you realise that the biggest people doing this feel the same way you do and it\u2019s quite an empowering thing like, \u201cRight, okay. They feel it too, the difference is they push through, and I have the choice to either push through or not.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So for me, I was like, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019m always going to try to push through.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then the second thing is probably in the last 6 months or so, I\u2019ve just found the confidence and I don\u2019t know what it is, I don\u2019t know where it\u2019s come from, to believe in what I say with conviction.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I noticed that yesterday I was speaking at an event, and I just felt I spoke with conviction, I really believed in what I was saying.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I didn\u2019t care what people thought, this is what I believe, and I said it with conviction. And if it\u2019s for you, great. If it\u2019s not, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Whereas beforehand I was maybe unsure and a little meek, and the only way I\u2019ve been able to do that is just do it more and more and more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You have to learn in the arena kind of thing. You can\u2019t learn in private. And the more that you put yourself out there, I\u2019ve personally found, you become more comfortable in the setting and when you\u2019re comfortable in the setting, you start to relax your shoulders a little and you can settle in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And once all that anxiety goes away because you\u2019re familiar with doing the thing that you\u2019re being tasked with, that\u2019s when you start to be able to articulate yourself a little better and you build a bit more confidence.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then eventually you find that you\u2019re getting more conviction around what you\u2019re saying. And then that comes across in your tone of voice and how you hold yourself and your body language and all these things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And it really, really, really is a journey. I\u2019ve seen that from working with people and seeing them go from telling me that they\u2019re never going to have a photo taken of them or film a video, to producing video content every single day across 5 platforms in a journey of 5 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It just takes time and the confidence kind of builds naturally from throwing yourself in the deep end with it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You can\u2019t copy and paste someone else\u2019s success<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And can you recall, and will you share with us an example where you made a mistake, like your greatest mistake when it comes to personal brand and then I guess what you learned and how you moved past it?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think the biggest mistake is not something that was one definitive moment. Touch wood, I\u2019ve not had a disastrous incident kind of thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think there was a moment where I looked at what other people were doing, it was working for them and I thought, \u201cRight, okay, I\u2019ll apply that to the work that I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I just copied and pasted what others were doing and applied it to who I was working with. And this was maybe around 2022 and there was a period of maybe 3 months where I was kind of like, \u201cRight, that\u2019s what we need to be doing for who we\u2019re working with, and that\u2019s the way to get ahead.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And I lost sight of the fact that the reason why it worked for that person was because nobody else was doing it and it was right for them to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I\u2019d always held that view, but there was a short period where I lost it for a few months and I had to remember and bring it back to the fundamental principles of what I believe in, which is, that you have to figure out who you are and show up in a way that suits you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And if you do that, you tend to do things that nobody else is doing because you\u2019re not focused on what anyone else is doing. You\u2019re focused on what\u2019s right for you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So I\u2019d say that was probably the biggest mistake that I made. I let my tunnel vision swerve off for a little and I had to pull it back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
How to keep up with the shifting sands<\/strong><\/h2>\n\n\n\nBex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nAnd on that theme, have there been any moments when through no fault of your own, maybe it\u2019s an algorithm changing or some tech megatrend where you felt like you\u2019ve been thrown a bit?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
In your work with your clients, with their personal brands, have there been curveballs that have been thrown your way that you\u2019ve had to adjust to, change course or learn from?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Ash Jones:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\nI think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWe are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\nJoin our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I think with entrepreneurs, everything\u2019s changing all the time. It\u2019s constantly shifting sands from the business strategy and what they\u2019re doing to the overall business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There are always changes being made internally and things progress in different directions. Negative things are maybe redundancies or cash flow issues or anything like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then people leave businesses, they exit them, they start new ones, and all of a sudden you might have to completely shift what you\u2019re doing, and you\u2019ve got the plan ahead for that, even down to how the social platforms operate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So take LinkedIn for example. There was a report recently where engagement and reach for the average person on the platform has nosedived, like it\u2019s 50% lower than it was 2 years ago.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So LinkedIn had a golden era that you could take advantage of. And there\u2019s always shifting sands to contend with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
But I think the thing that saved it is thinking about what personal brand actually is, the foundational elements have nothing to do with something that\u2019s not in your control.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It has nothing to do with how an algorithm reacts and through focusing on that rather than how can I become popular on LinkedIn. If you just try to figure out how to become popular on LinkedIn, you\u2019re at the mercy of LinkedIn, you\u2019re building a castle of sand, kind of analogy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And taking the time to lean into the right fundamentals of personal branding mean that you are not excused of shifting sands and challenges, but you\u2019ve got a lot more control over things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Inspired by this business story?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\n\n\n\n We are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Join our community to share your insights and stories on X @SageUK<\/a> using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\n\n\n\n You can find out more about Ash on his LinkedIn<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\nWant to know more about Ash and Great Influence?<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
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