How has the pandemic impacted businesses\u2014are we more resilient now than ever before?<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Two hours of brainstorming and a \u00a350m (\u20ac60m) business idea later\u2026<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n A CFO left with \u00a34bn (\u20ac5bn) worth of debt, no CEO and thousands of employees depending on him<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Wearing down your rivals to reveal manufacturing secrets<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Being ruthless with your time, so you can be fully present in your contributions<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n When New York Fashion Week results in a backlog of 16,000 bags<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You can never prepare for an excessive boom sales\u2014but you can learn from your past mistakes<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n The one challenge every business faces\u2014varying capacity<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n What to do when your own manufacturer steals your designs<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Choosing your premises based on which has fewer rat traps<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Technology allows businesses to focus less on admin and more on the important stuff<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n How Sage systems can make your life easier<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n An entrepreneurial mindset is key to adapting your business<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n The beauty of long forgotten British craftsmanship<\/a><\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Demonstrating a commitment to your communities will strength their resilience<\/a><\/p>\r\n So one of the reasons we\u2019re talking about resilience is because of some new research<\/a> by you, Steve, at Sage, the brand behind this very podcast, which showed that when it comes to resilience, British entrepreneurs are split right down the middle.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Half say they are more resilient now following the pandemic and half say they\u2019re not.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I wanted to first ask, what is resilience? Is it just having cash buffers in the business or having a plan B and not just a plan A?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Steve, can you just set us off and just set the scene about what we mean by resilience?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Absolutely. I think it starts with how you feel personally.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Of course, you need to have those plan B\u2019s and think about the different ways that things might play out.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Things never quite turn out the way that you expect them, but it starts with an attitude of mind.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think if you\u2019re a resilient type of person, when you see obstacles, when you take knocks and when things turn out in a different way to what you\u2019re expecting, you learn from that, and you carry on, but it\u2019s important to learn.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Then your resilience and your confidence builds because you start to see how you can overcome what looked like a pretty tough obstacle at the time.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I mean, you say it starts with the leader and an attitude almost. And is that in-built?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I mean, Julie, I\u2019ve known you a long time. You are definitely one of the most resilient entrepreneurs when it comes to facing a challenge and thinking \u2018No bother, I\u2019m going to just fix this.\u2019<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Is that something that\u2019s innate, or did you learn that through being in business?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n No, I think I was born with it because otherwise I\u2019d been crushed in my upbringing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think my dad was probably the scariest, most difficult man I\u2019ve ever met and after dealing with him, everything after that seemed okay really.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019m like a rubber ball. I bounce back so many times.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So do you think that resilience is learned through dealing with adversity then?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Because when we\u2019re talking about resilience, post-pandemic, a lot of these founders, maybe they would never know what it is to be resilient if they hadn\u2019t been tested.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So do you feel that\u2019s part of it, to have to get through the trials and learn?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think the thing is that there are a lot of very, very confident people that do give this impression that there\u2019s only one way of doing something.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019ve seen this at the British Library, at the Business and IP Centre. And so many people have an amazing idea, but they think they have to read six business books before they get stuck in, and they won\u2019t be ready until they do that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But you can always procrastinate.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think where I was really lucky was, I knew that I only had the school summer holidays and \u00a3600 (\u20ac716) to crack on with. So I thought I better not mess about.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think that it\u2019s a lack of self-belief that causes so many problems.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I like that. Procrastination and a lack of self-belief.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Those are the twin enemies of resilience.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Steve, just back to the research<\/a>, it says in this barometer that seven in 10 businesses are now more confident about their performance a year from now.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I mean, are we a pretty resilient lot in the UK?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n That\u2019s pretty standout considering two years of upheaval, well more than two years.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think what the research shows, as you say, seven out of 10 think they\u2019ll be able to get back to pre-pandemic trading levels, profitability levels, etcetera.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n About half felt that they had emerged from the pandemic more resilient, but therefore half weren\u2019t so sure.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Again, I think this just comes back to issue of confidence.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I agree it helps if you are born with, what some might call it, stubbornness. My single mindedness can sometimes be interpreted as a bit stubborn, but you can definitely enhance it by going through adversity.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think what we\u2019ve seen during the pandemic is if you\u2019ve run a business through the pandemic, you\u2019ve had to be more agile.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Things have changed more rapidly.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So if you were able to adapt, be agile, work your way through, figure out different ways of serving your customer, that has given you a confidence level, that you would be able to do that again.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n This fear people have of experimentation or failure, it\u2019s really because they fear the unexpected.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think what you see in small businesses, is they kind of embrace the unexpected, and they gain in confidence when they are able to deal with it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n As opposed to seeing unexpected outcomes as mistakes, or not what you wanted to happen, learn from it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Then you can start to embrace it and see actually taking more risk and responding quickly to changing circumstances can then become a real strength.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think we see that in the UK, where there are a lot of small businesses.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Last year, in 2021, despite the pandemic, it was a record year for new business starts.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I mean, that\u2019s fantastic.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I love that, that small business owners, they don\u2019t see mistakes and problems as stumbling blocks.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n They\u2019re just opportunities to do things a bit differently.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I want to come back to some of those themes, but I want to talk to you both about resilience in your businesses, in your careers, and just paint the picture of how you\u2019ve learnt to be resilient leaders over the years.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Julie, I\u2019d love to start with you because I feel like just starting The Cambridge Satchel Company was an act of resilience and defiance.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You wanted to do something differently. You wanted to provide for your family.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Tell us that story.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I needed to get my children into a good school.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Emily particularly was not thriving at the school she was at. So I made her the promise that she wouldn\u2019t go back to that school. She was going to go to a school that was fantastic.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But when I found a school that was fantastic, I found out it came with a \u00a312,000 (\u20ac14,330) per child, per year, school fee.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I mean, thank God, I only have two children, but still, that\u2019s \u00a324,000 (\u20ac28,660) after tax.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You\u2019re left thinking, how do people do that?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But I\u2019d made this promise to her. And so it was very clear how much I needed to make.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I had a \u00a3600 (\u20ac716) seed fund, and I knew when school was going to start again.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I had my parameters there and being a very logical person, I sort of went back and sat down at the computer and made a list on Excel of 10 things I could do to come up with the school fees.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It was called schoolfees.XLS, with a remarkable lack of imagination. I think I should have called it moonshot.XLS.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But I sort of had my 10 ideas and marked them all across the columns and the idea of satchels had more marks than anything else. So I decided to get started on that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I mean, for that whole exercise, I only gave myself two hours.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I mean, it had to be done very, very quickly, but that then means you don\u2019t dither.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You don\u2019t ask 10 people, so you don\u2019t get 10 different opinions.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think that if I\u2019d had more resources and more time, I wouldn\u2019t have come up with such a good idea.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Well, that\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You give yourself two hours to come up with a business idea and in five years it\u2019s worth \u00a350m (\u20ac60m).<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I mean, that just seems like something out of a story book.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n No, no, there were so many really bad, bad moments.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think it\u2019s important to pass along how difficult parts have been.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Otherwise, people look back, and they read these things, and they think I must be doing something wrong, because I\u2019m facing this horrible situation, and you\u2019re not.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Everybody does, but they don\u2019t talk about it very much.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We will go through some of those moments!<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Steve, you cut your teeth in manufacturing, right?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You were a finance guy, but you were in the manufacturing industry, which is famous for ups and downs and supply issues. So you must know quite a lot about resilience in all forms, from supply chain to leadership.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You were also at Marconi, the telecoms firm during the dotcom bust. So that must have been interesting. Tell us about some of these experiences.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I moved into manufacturing when I was in my twenties.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n As you say, I was a finance guy, but I really wanted to work in manufacturing. I wanted to learn about supply chains and what it took to make things.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n At that time, in the 1980s and 1990s, the manufacturing industry in the UK was diminishing, and I wanted to experience it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But it\u2019s real cut and thrust.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I remember as a very keen, fresh face 20-year-old, it wasn\u2019t very politically correct, in terms of how the factory manager treated you.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n If he thought you were a waste of space, he told you, and he used to tell me that on a regular basis.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But I really wanted to show him that I could add value and help him run his factory.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Whereas, he just saw me as an overhead who was checking up on him and adding no value whatsoever. So I worked really to show him that by using insight data, I could help him become more successful.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So look, obviously I was ambitious, I wanted to get on. But I very much started from, I\u2019m going to show him that I can help him and his factory to become more success by measuring things.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I worked my way up from being the factory accountant to being the CFO of Marconi.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I became the CFO of Marconi in 2001 just as the dotcom crash was coming.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I remember being very, very proud of myself. In fact, probably a bit too smug with myself, to be honest.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I was 39 years old and CFO of the 15th biggest company in the UK.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I thought that was pretty impressive stuff.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Over that first six months that I was CFO, we had two profit warnings. My boss, who was the CEO and the chairman of the board, both left, and we were in \u00a34bn (\u20ac5bn) of debt that we were really unable to pay.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I then spent the next 12 to 18 months negotiating to try and restructure and save the operating business, which was still trading, just not as well as it had done previously.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n That was an enormous test.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I mean, I\u2019d never done anything like that before. I was negotiating with people who, let\u2019s be honest, were deeply, deeply upset.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n They weren\u2019t very nice to me in all honesty.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But when I look back, I learned so, so much from being in that adverse situation and I just would not give up.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I was determined to find a solution. I did not want the company to go bust.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We employed tens of thousands of people and I wanted those people to have a successful future, which they did. I mean, the shareholders lost all their money. The banks took over, but actually we didn\u2019t have to reduce that many jobs.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I left at the end. It was one of those announcements when they say, \u2018left by mutual agreement\u2019. I mean, I was fired because the banks didn\u2019t want me to continue.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I\u2019d gone in that very short period of time from, this is my dream, I\u2019m pretty smug, I\u2019m pretty happy with myself, to being out on my ear.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n There were quite a few people who said to me, you\u2019ll never return to that type of job.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Well, I\u2019ve done three public company jobs since then. So I kind of proved them wrong.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019ve got a couple of questions about all of this, because one, when you saw all the other senior people quitting, basically, what was it that made you stay and decide that you were going to try and get the company out of this mess?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Because a lot of people would\u2019ve just been like, not my problem.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Then how long did it take you after you left Marconi to sort of recover?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Did you burn out, did you have to just regroup, and how long did that take?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It\u2019s really funny. I can\u2019t remember ever spending a second thinking, well, I\u2019m just going to walk away from this.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It was not like I felt I\u2019d created the problem because it was created by taking on too much debt, which I didn\u2019t take on.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But it was my job, I\u2019d been appointed to do something.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n The circumstances had changed, but I still had a responsibility, as I say, to tens of thousands of people. I think it would just have been completely disloyal to walk away from that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I felt I had to fix it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Actually one of the tributes, one of the lead banks that was very unhappy with me at the time, later on, I was applying for a job, and I needed a reference and the bank that I\u2019d been crossing swords with agreed to give me a reference.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And what they said was, \u201cAt all times Steve attempted to do the best he possibly could for all of the stakeholders.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \u201cBy definition, that actually meant that they were all unhappy, because he didn\u2019t favour any of them.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \u201cBut the best thing we can say is at no time did he consider his personal position when he was doing that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \u201cHe was trying to do the best for the shareholders and in the end, it cost him his job, but he did the right thing for the stakeholders.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I did then have to go and lie low for a bit. I sort of ran my own business. I did some consulting and I mean that was a real shock. I went from managing thousands of people to doing my own VAT Return.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It reminded me what it\u2019s like when you have to do everything yourself, which was a real leveller.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I did that for a couple of years. Then I got another job with a public company called Spectris as a CFO, which was a FTSE 250 company and gradually rebuilt relationships and carried on.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I love that. Two years of doing my VAT Return, and I\u2019m ready to run another public company.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Thank you very much by comparison.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Julie, this is the same story with founders.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Founders can\u2019t walk away, I mean even more, so they can\u2019t walk away.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n There have been several points in the story of Cambridge Satchel where you\u2019ve kind of bumped up against something and maybe someone else would\u2019ve dropped it and would\u2019ve thought like this is not working, but you didn\u2019t.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n One of the early moments was when you were trying to get the first bags made and remember we only have \u00a3600 (\u20ac716) in the pot.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So can you tell us this outrageous story of how you got some poor man in Scotland to make your bags?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Tell us from the top please.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think one thing I\u2019ve realised over the years is, I honestly think that when I have an idea, everybody is thinking exactly the same thing as I am in my head and 80% of the time, that\u2019s not the case.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I just knew I wanted to make school satchels and there wasn\u2019t a shred of doubt in my head that whatever manufacturers I approached and said, \u201cI want you to make a school satchel.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n They would be seeing the same object as I was seeing in my head.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But I just didn\u2019t know where their pricing was coming from.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n The worst thing is the minute they call themselves \u2018artisans\u2019, because then it\u2019s going to cost \u00a3200 (\u20ac239) a time and these are supposed to be satchels for school.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I sort of came up with this thing that I thought was the obvious way forward.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019d make a prototype so that I could show them what I needed.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I made a satchel out of two cereal boxes covered in brown paper and with a black Sharpie I drew on the buckles. I mean, to be fair, it looked very much like a satchel.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Thank God, a satchel is really straightforward.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But anyway, I just could not find a manufacturer and I hadn\u2019t realised, it never entered my mind to get these things made overseas.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It was British manufacturing that I had in mind because what\u2019s more British than a satchel?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But I just could not find a manufacturer.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I was scrolling through all these pages of Google searches related to satchels. And I scrolled back to page 12, and nobody goes off the first page, but you seldom go more than halfway down.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n On page 12, there was this school in Scotland that said school satchels can be obtained from our outfitter.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I phoned the school outfitter and I said to him, \u201cI can\u2019t find satchels for my children. I think the world needs satchels. Who makes your satchels? Where do you get them from?\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n He wasn\u2019t going to tell me and fair enough, I\u2019d be exactly the same way.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And so he said, \u201cNo, I\u2019m not giving away my manufacturer\u2019s details.\u201d I said, \u201cBut are they made in the UK?\u201d And he said, \u201cYes.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n At that point, the poor man sealed his fate. He was going to experience misery on a grand scale until he buckled.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I thought, he\u2019s there in the school outfitter shop in Scotland. He\u2019s going to settle down and really get engaged with customers or start doing his VAT Return or something.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And I\u2019m going to phone him every 35 minutes and ask him a question and until he cracks.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I set my kitchen timer for 35 minutes and I phoned him, and I said, \u201cWhat colours do you do the bags in?\u201d He said, \u201cIt\u2019s chestnut brown.\u201d \u201cOh, okay.\u201d So I just left it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And then 35 minutes later, I phoned him again. I said, \u201cDo you have dark brown? Or was it just the chestnut?\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And then, 35 minutes later it was like, \u201cHave you thought of doing them in navy? I think navy always looks smart. It\u2019s not as harsh as black.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Oh my gosh, all that day, I phoned him every 35 minutes.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Then the next day I phoned him, and I said, \u201cThe size, now a 14-inch bag. Have you thought that maybe there are some children just a bit too small to carry that? What about say 13-inch?\u201d He said \u201cNo.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n He almost made it to lunchtime on the second day before he just said\u2026<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Oh, bless his heart.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \u201cAsk me all your questions.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And I said, \u201cThat\u2019s the really strange thing, is that in my heart, I know I have millions of questions, but when I phone you, maybe it\u2019s your voice, but I can only think of one at a time.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And at that point he just said, \u201cLook, this is the manufacturer. Why don\u2019t you make his life a misery?\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Which I didn\u2019t think was very charming.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But you know, I did sort of understand at that point and I then had my first manufacturer\u2019s details.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019m almost crying. This is like a comedy sketch.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I mean, this is the realness of building a business, right? Just the hilarious moments that are foisted upon you.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But that was the turning point.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Because without those bloody satchels, there wouldn\u2019t be those first products. I mean, you would\u2019ve been stuck.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So you had to bang down that door.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Yeah. I had to do it, and he was a casualty at that point, and I\u2019m sure casualty of war.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n He feels like he suffered, but I just needed that. I really needed to know.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Sometimes there are tricky times that build resilience, but sometimes there\u2019s also the problem of too much success.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So when things are going outrageously well, better than you anticipated, and that can cause problems.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019d like to talk to you both about a time in your careers when that\u2019s been the issue. And then what kind of resilience, if is that a different kind of resilience to be able to withstand too much success?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Steve, I might start with you.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think that last story is one of the best stories of perseverance I\u2019ve ever heard in my life. I thought I was tenacious, but that is something else.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think sometimes when things are going well, there are a couple of things that I would observe.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n First of all, when things are going well, it actually can hide quite a lot of problems.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It\u2019s actually only when things don\u2019t go well that you realise that there are quite a few other things not going well.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You might have thought they were okay, but they got ignored during those times of success.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think the other thing that I\u2019ve always suffered from is that I\u2019m very curious. So that makes me nosy, which means I want to be involved in everything. As I\u2019ve done bigger jobs, that\u2019s become harder and harder.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n When things are going well, and there\u2019s a lot happening, you can really find yourself trying to do too much. I then find it very difficult to actually attend to things and set them up properly.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So you end up being a bit superficial if you\u2019re not careful.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n One of the things it took me a long, long time to learn, and I still have to work very hard at this, is it can be very hard to be present at what you\u2019re actually doing because you have 20 things in your head.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So you are talking to someone, but you are thinking about something else, and you\u2019re not actually listening to what the person\u2019s saying to you because you\u2019ve already moved on to something new.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n That is a very dangerous state of mind to be in because then you don\u2019t learn properly because you\u2019re not listening.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think when things are flying high and everything\u2019s very successful, if you\u2019re not careful, you start to believe your contributions are a bit greater than perhaps they are.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You have to remember, particularly in a bigger company, it\u2019s a team effort.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You are facilitating, but you have to get really good people around you.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Then you\u2019ve really got to be ruthless with your time because you need to be present in whatever you choose to do.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n The best example in my career is when I worked for Apex. I worked in private equity, and I was an operating partner. So I was there to kind of troubleshoot within the companies that we owned, but I got an opportunity.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n The boss said to me, \u201cOh, we need someone to be COO of the firm. We need someone to run the back office, and a couple of hundred people. Steve, you are the only person really who has any people management skills. So can you do that?\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I said, \u201cYes, but I want to do the job I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And he was like, \u201cThat\u2019s fine. Just do them both.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I thought, well that\u2019s fantastic. Wow. I\u2019m now the COO of a prior equity firm. I\u2019m sitting on the investment committee. I never gave a single thought to how I was going to make that work.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n The truth is, I didn\u2019t until I faced up to the fact that I needed to do it differently, but I sort of thought I could do anything.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I could make this happen. I just had to get the right team around me.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So my advice is, always be very thoughtful about what you do and when you do it, be present.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Make sure that you spend your time where only you can be effective.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n If someone else can do it, get them to do it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n That\u2019s a great point about success almost being blinding.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And that actually, when things start going almost too well, that\u2019s when the wheels could fall off, because you haven\u2019t got the right controls in place.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Was that your experience?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Julie, did your wheels come off at any point?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n My wheels well and truly came off.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I taught myself to code, I coded my first website. I mean, that website didn\u2019t really have many wheels to start with, but it got me to where I needed to be.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Everything was run on the basis of, if I can sell 10 bags a day, that would be great.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I had these British manufacturers that were fantastic.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I had one in Scotland, one in Hull and one in Norfolk. Each one of them could make up to 250 bags a week.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I was thinking, I\u2019m just aiming to sell about 10 a day. So I\u2019ve just got so much space here.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Of course, I can supply Urban Outfitters in America from my kitchen, it just a little bit of planning on my Excel spreadsheet. This is good. I\u2019m all good.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Then I had a call from somebody, and they said, \u201cOh, next summer, it\u2019s going to be the brighter, the better.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And I had seen some health and safety leather at one of the manufacturers because he was making some health and safety sort of stuff.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I said to him, \u201cOh, could you make me a satchel in that?\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It was bright yellow health and safety fluorescent, and I sent it away to the magazine. They said, \u201cYes, this is amazing. This is great.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I was thinking really, these fluorescent bags? Then I had this really bright idea.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I thought I\u2019m going to ask the bloggers that seem to be driving a lot of my traffic, to wear them. They were going to New York Fashion Week. I had no idea what people even did at New York Fashion Week, but they were going.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I said, \u201cIf I lend you a bag\u201d\u2014I wouldn\u2019t even give them a bag.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \u201cIf I lend you the bag, can you wear it at some big shows you\u2019re going to, because I really need them to get noticed because I need to make enough money to send my kids to school.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I think the honesty was quite compelling, and these bags were outrageous, they were fluorescent.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And so they did take the bags with them.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n They went to some enormous shows in New York Fashion Week. And when the lights went down and the show started, they\u2019d start taking photos and the flash photography would pick up all of these fluorescent bags\u2014it was high vis everywhere.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I had them in pink and orange and the original yellow.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We call it a signature yellow now because that\u2019s what people in fashion do, and it was all over the place.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n The New York Times called us the \u2018street style sensation of New York Fashion Week\u2019.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n All of a sudden, my website went absolutely ballistic. It hit 16,000 bags on backlog. That was really, really tricky because Ewan, Clive and Alec weren\u2019t going past the 250 bag a week mark, and I was begging them.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And they said, \u201cNo, there\u2019s all these health and safety rules, because then you\u2019ve got to start having health and safety people in.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Then the manufacturer in Hull said that the ladies didn\u2019t like making the fluorescent bags because it was giving them a headache. So they\u2019d make any bag, but not the fluorescent ones.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It was just a nightmare.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n People would come in and say, \u201cWhat a great problem to have.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But it wasn\u2019t a great problem to have because people were angry. They were really angry. They wanted their bags.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But then the Department of Trade found this big manufacturer who was experiencing horrible difficulties and said, \u201cLook, they\u2019ve got the right machines there. They\u2019ll be able to make volume.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I was thinking, hurrah, this is the way out.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n In the meantime, I was writing back to all these customers saying, \u201cDon\u2019t be angry, but you\u2019re definitely not going to get it this week. The girls in Hull have got a headache, and they\u2019re not making any more fluorescent ones.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It was so unbelievably stressful. Success didn\u2019t taste that great at that point. What happened with the big volume manufacturer, that felt great for about three months because I was getting volume, and I was thinking, oh this is fantastic.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I could see some of that big backlog being chopped away.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But I found things miserable and tough with that many people emailing me to say how disappointed they were that they didn\u2019t have their bag by then.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Or that it was their daughter\u2019s birthday, and I\u2019d ruined their birthday.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n When you\u2019ve got thousands of those every day, it\u2019s not a great place. It doesn\u2019t feel what success should feel like.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But little did I know that things were about to get way worse.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I want to know what you learned from that experience, as in how have you prevented that kind of boom in sales, from having the same impact again, or is it impossible to plan for something like that?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I just think it\u2019s impossible because I never thought that by giving those people those bags, it was going to have that instant kind of take up and that mass effect.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n If you did plan for that, then what would you do?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n All of a sudden, you\u2019d start all kind of capital expenditure. You\u2019d gear your business up to be able to cope with making 18,000 bags.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Then all of a sudden, you\u2019d have so much overhead that the minute that subsided you\u2019d be completely crippled by it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You just can\u2019t plan for that kind of thing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think it was probably karma for all the nagging I gave that poor man in Scotland, but these people were on my back.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But the only thing that would make them happy was to get them a bag. So I would be as open in my communications as I could.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019d put an auto-response on my email because there were only three people in the business at that point. It was me, my mother, and Lottie, the girl down the road.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So then it was time to embrace tech, and I put an auto-response on just saying, \u2018If you\u2019ve contacted me to say, you\u2019re disappointed, I know you\u2019re disappointed. I am literally bending over backwards to sort this problem. We\u2019ll be back in touch.\u2019<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n The best thing I could do was to keep my focus on trying to get the bags made because that was long term.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n That was the only thing that would make them happy.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And Steve, you are nodding.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Does hearing this story make you very glad that you run a technology business?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I mean, do you have the same peaks in demand and pressures in the same way or is it a completely different kettle of fish?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n There are some similarities, but no, in manufacturing, load variation is a huge issue.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think actually it\u2019s interesting, particularly with businesses like yours, Julie. You have to sometimes decide and be quite firm about what you are going to do and what you\u2019re not going to do.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n As you say, just because the demand is there, it does not necessarily mean that you want to put in place the dramatically increased capacity because that\u2019s actually maybe not what you want to do with your business.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I remember in fact Bex, one of your previous guests, Ryan, talking about vegan doughnuts.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I remember him saying that actually I\u2019m not going to make unlimited amounts of doughnuts. That\u2019s not why I\u2019m in this business.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I have a kitchen and I will produce what I can produce in that kitchen, but I\u2019m not having 10 kitchens because it\u2019s a personal thing for me. I\u2019m still involved, and I don\u2019t want the stress of all these different things.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think that\u2019s really cool, if you are as clear as you were Julie, about why you got into business. You went into business to pay for school fees and those objectives may evolve.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But at the end of the day, it\u2019s your business, and you do it for your reason.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Obviously, we\u2019re different. We\u2019re a bit bigger. We have public shareholders.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But in many ways growing 40% one year and 2% the next year is disruptive to any business. It means your capability and capacity is just flexing up and down.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Although we don\u2019t have manufacturing, we still have support.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n If we grow rapidly, which we have done in the past, and we\u2019re still growing strongly now, what happens is our customer service comes under enormous pressure.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So you call us, and then you have to wait because we don\u2019t answer the phone fast enough because we don\u2019t have enough people.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So we put the people in place and then the calls drop, and they\u2019re sat there, and we have to use them for something else.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So this varying capacity is definitely an issue for all businesses.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It\u2019s getting harder and harder to plan for that because the world has a lot of uncertainty. I mean, think about small businesses that serve commuters.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So you\u2019re running a coffee shop. I actually stopped this morning to get a coffee in London. I was talking to the lady because I go to the same place every day.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Of course, they\u2019ve got peaks now on, say a Wednesday, when everybody\u2019s coming into the office. So they sell lots of coffee.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But on a Monday, hardly any, but predicting what will happen on a day-by-day basis has become largely impossible.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It\u2019s the same for sandwich shops.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n How do you cater for these things? The load is just going up and down. It\u2019s really challenging.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Yeah, I wish there was a straightforward answer.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I mean, I love that point about if you know your purpose, and you know, your boundaries that helps you be resilient.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But in terms of the external pressures and rising and falling in demand, you can be as resilient as you like, but it\u2019s still tricky.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think you have to be honest. I think Julie said this, you have to be honest with your customers, right?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So if you are not going to be able to do something for them, you have to be prepared to say so.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n There\u2019s nothing that customers get angrier about than if you say, \u201cWell, don\u2019t worry, I\u2019ll get it to you tomorrow.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n When actually it\u2019s going to be six weeks.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n If it\u2019s going to be six weeks, you have to tell them, \u201cI\u2019m sorry, it\u2019s six weeks, and we\u2019ll do our very best to do it faster, but there is no way it\u2019s going to be tomorrow.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Julie, you went out of the frying pan and into the fire, as you say.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So you thought that was going to be the biggest stress.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I did.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And then a few months later, something even bigger walloped you.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Even bigger. Yeah.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So they were in financial problems, the manufacturer. So we agreed that I would buy all the raw materials. Then as soon as the bags were made, I would pay on the day the bags were made.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n None of this 30-day, 60-day terms.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I would buy all the knives and I would take them to the other manufacturers that I had up and running already. So the bags could all look the same.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Having done all this, I thought this was finally going to make these people happy, and it was going to be great.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Well, first of all, I had one of the bloggers say, \u201cI\u2019ve just had a bag sent to me. Have you changed your name?\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And I say, \u201cNo, I haven\u2019t changed my name.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n She said, \u201cWell, it\u2019s the same bag, but it\u2019s now called Zatchels.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And she said, \u201cI don\u2019t think that\u2019s a good name.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I thought, well, what, no, somebody\u2019s just copying. It\u2019s somebody overseas copying me. Never for a minute did I think it was my manufacturer.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But then I had a phone call from someone who worked there and said, \u201cAre you the lady with the boxer dog that comes around and talks to us?\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I thought they were pretty high odds, so there could only be one woman with a big boxer that walks around there. So I said \u201cYes, I am.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And he said, \u201cWell, I can\u2019t sleep. I\u2019ve never been part of something like this before, but your material is being made to make copies, and it\u2019s being hidden across the road and just feel really bad about it.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I couldn\u2019t believe it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I really couldn\u2019t believe it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I went down to my manufacturer, and I knew if this was true, that I couldn\u2019t work with somebody like that, who\u2019s lying.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n After I\u2019d saved their business, and they were making more on every bag that I was making.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It was just sleazy. It was wrong. I couldn\u2019t do it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We still had over 20,000 bags in backlog because the backlog kept growing. So it was around 20,000 bags in the hole.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I was going down to the only volume manufacturer that I had.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But I did get a huge lorry from one of the tanneries and said, we might have to pull all the leather out, because if this is true, then all the leather is coming out, and he\u2019s not making a single one for me after that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I went down and sort of faced him down with all the people and the sewing machines around, and they were making the bags like mad, and I was thinking, they\u2019re the only ones that are making on this scale.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I just said to him, \u201cThis is what I\u2019ve been told. Is this right?\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n He looked me in the eye, and he said, \u201cYeah. And the thing is, you\u2019ve got no choice. You are just a stupid woman who doesn\u2019t know about manufacturing. So you\u2019re going to have to suck it up.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And he just turned and walked out.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I was just stood there. I couldn\u2019t believe it. I was so angry. I think the stupid woman thing didn\u2019t help.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n If he did the same thing again, maybe leaving that sentence out would\u2019ve been a better move, but it was just astonishing. I was just thinking, oh my gosh and I really can\u2019t work with him now.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I know I\u2019m pulling all the leather out. I also know that backlog is massive and growing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I heard myself say, and it\u2019s something I hadn\u2019t thought of before I went down there, but I heard myself turn to the people there and say, \u201cWow, he is a truly horrible person. And if he treats his best customer that way, then he must be horrible to work for.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \u201cSo why don\u2019t you come and work for me at my factory?\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019m like, what factory would that be?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But it was like at my factory. Let\u2019s do that. We can just all make them.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You\u2019ll have all kinds of benefits like heat and people not yelling at you and stuff. All, but two of them joined.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I was driving back to Cambridge with this massive lorry full of leather behind me, all different colours. I didn\u2019t know where it was going to go.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So we took it back to the tannery and I said I would work out a plan for it tomorrow.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Then I went back, and I made Emily and Max their dinner and I tried to appear really calm.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We read through the Golden Key, we did the homework, they went to bed. Then I just went straight on to Right Move. I thought, please, please, God, let Right Move do commercial properties.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I looked at five factories the next day. I put the original manufacturer\u2019s postcode in because it needed to be close so all the workers from there, were able to get to my factory.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I put his postcode in, and I viewed these really ropey places the next day, because none of this had been planned.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n That was a brave decision because I had to use the money that people were paying for the bags to set up the manufacturing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So, that was a tricky time.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019m having palpitations, just hearing this story and what I\u2019d love to know where that man is now and his business.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Do you know?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Is he in prison?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Well I did sue them. I did take legal action, but I only took legal action after my factory was up and running.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I know my limitations and I knew I couldn\u2019t take on some big lawsuit and the lawsuit was not going to make the bags that were going to make the people happy\u2014 especially after I\u2019d used their money to start manufacturing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I had to make these people\u2019s bags and I think it was the worst time.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n These places that I saw the next day because you know, I didn\u2019t have any time to waste. But these places that I saw, some of them, they were the worst places that you\u2019ve ever seen.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I whittled it down to two.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But the only way I could objectively choose between these two awful places was by which one had fewer rat traps on the floor and that\u2019s how I chose the first premises.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But then, it was so ropey, the front fell off the factory about two months later, and it was a terrifically awful time.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n However, I will say it was the best move because since then we\u2019ve won British manufacturer of the year.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We make all of our own bags in the UK. They\u2019re not offshored, and I\u2019m really proud of that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019m really, really proud of our manufacturing place. It\u2019s not the same place as that first place that I had. We have zero rat traps on the floor. I\u2019m just going to put that out there now.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Steve, I mean, you hear stories like this.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Sage, it\u2019s a huge platform with so many small businesses on it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Tell me about how you as a CEO of a big business are giving business owners like Julie a voice, what the issues that you hear about every day you are championing at the moment?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Sure. I just also would just like to say, I think that story Julie just told was an absolutely fantastic story.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It\u2019s just a great example of focusing on customers and then also focusing on your people.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n If you get the customer experience and your colleagues, the people that you employ, if you look after those two, I mean, that\u2019s really your business.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It doesn\u2019t matter what you do. If you don\u2019t do those two things, long term, you won\u2019t have a business.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n The businesses that thrive are the ones that serve their customers, and they look after their people and their people enjoy being part of the experience.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think in terms of what we\u2019re trying to do, it\u2019s things like lobbying government.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019ve had quite a few meetings with government recently around trying to ensure that in the UK, we have a business-friendly environment.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Particularly for small businesses through things like the Help to Grow Scheme<\/a>, through trying to get more tax incentives.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019m a big believer that in the same way that, historically things like capital allowances have been tremendously successful, because it allows an entrepreneur to invest in physical infrastructure, machinery, and reduce their tax burden.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think that should be more flexible in a digital age so that you can invest more into digital tools and into making your business more productive, rather than just hardware.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We should try and help as wide a number of people as we can.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n At the end of the day, we want people like Julie to be able to focus on running their business, not doing admin and compliance and so on.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So between Sage and accountants, we should be able to work together to really try and automate, as much as possible, that back office, compliance and giving insights.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Julie\u2019s mentioned it, speed of cash flow is everything.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n If you\u2019re running a small business, it\u2019s not really to do with profits. It\u2019s to do with cash.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Have you got cash?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So you need your cash coming in very quickly, and you need to be careful and thoughtful about your forecasting of what pays out.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We try to really focus on providing advice, particularly during the pandemic. We had a Covid hub, which actually was not just for our customers. We made it freely available to all small and medium businesses to try and increase the speed at which people could access that advice.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think sometimes, I\u2019m sure Julie would feel this, it\u2019s like those stories that she\u2019s just been telling. It can be a lonely place running a small business.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I\u2019d like to think that as well as providing software, we provide 24\/7 support.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n If you need to speak to someone, pick up the phone and there\u2019ll be somebody there from Sage to talk to you.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I really like that point about how technology can bolster resilience and that\u2019s the role that Sage wants to play.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n That was also mentioned funnily enough in the research in the barometer because I think it was 56% of UK SMEs said that the pandemic has permanently increased their reliance on technology.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So it\u2019s contributed to that resilience.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Julie, you are a Sage customer.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Do you think that having a lot of that stuff taken care of, that your finance function is confident of all of these systems running smoothly, that frees you up to focus on strategy and building your business?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n If I think back to the first sort of like three years, I spent so much time on bank reconciliations, between what was coming in on the website, what was coming in through PayPal and then what was coming in through the card reader and all of these methods.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It took so long, and things just weren\u2019t speaking to each other in a way that made my life easy at all.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n There were loads of other things I needed to do, but those bank reconciliations, you\u2019d always be out by like 15p.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It was just so annoying, and it would just drive you insane.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I remember there were some government things that they\u2019d get Cambridge or businesses together to talk about their problems and the problems of a big business are very different to the problems of a small business.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019d hear about the problems of what they\u2019re doing about R&D credits and their supply chain and everything.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n All I wanted to know was there an easy way for me to get DPD to pick up from the house?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n That\u2019s what I wanted, because I didn\u2019t want to stand in the local post office with 12 parcels being hated by everybody behind me, three times a day.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n That\u2019s what I wanted.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think it\u2019s a very different kind of environment and hopefully businesses, if they want to scale, they will scale from one set, and you\u2019ll get different sets of problems. But I think what I like with Sage at least is we\u2019ve been able to grow with it.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So we\u2019ve been able to use some modules when we\u2019re smaller and now at the moment we\u2019re integrating, there\u2019s a manufacturing thing, which hopefully will mean that automation makes things a little bit smoother because that\u2019s not what we do well.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We make bags brilliantly well.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We don\u2019t sit there and think about how we\u2019re going to do different levels of VAT, all of that kind of thing. If we can have systems that talk to each other, then that makes my life a lot easier.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think with karma, my life is due to be a lot easier. I\u2019ve done my thing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Yes. I would agree with that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Paid my dues.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Just finally, I want to talk about kind of building a resilient environment in which to operate because you can make all the right decisions for your business, but you need a stable economy.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You need to create the talent, which comes into your business to future-proof your growth.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You\u2019ve both done that.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Like tell me about how you have to committed to building resilience around the business in the kind of 360 view in order, yes, to support your growth, but also to do the right thing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We have always got out of tight spots by having that entrepreneurial thinking that we had in the early days.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We\u2019ve created problems for ourselves when we\u2019ve acted as if we\u2019re a \u00a3100m (\u20ac119m) turnover business when we\u2019re not. I think that going back to that idea of we\u2019re not seeing the tourists now because of the pandemic. That really hurt us.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n The American and the Chinese tourists were absolutely a bedrock for our bricks and mortar shops.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We\u2019ve got London, we\u2019ve got Edinburgh, we\u2019ve got Cambridge. We wanted those tour groups, but those tour groups aren\u2019t there.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So thinking those people are still around and hopefully would still want to buy from us.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So how do we reach them? That\u2019s why we tried things like livestream shopping, to try and reach them where they are.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We did a pop-up in Shanghai.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It\u2019s this sort of mindset of, that\u2019s not going to work, how can we do it?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And keeping that \u2018let\u2019s just give it a go\u2019 mentality because never in a million years, did I think that sending those high vis satchels to New York Fashion Week would have the impact it did.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Never in a million years.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Sometimes you just don\u2019t know what\u2019s going to work. So you have to throw out all kinds of things and see what takes.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But also just investing. I mean, you\u2019ve brought back some like long forgotten skills.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Some of the satchels and bags that you make, haven\u2019t been made.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Your doctor\u2019s bag I read hadn\u2019t been made that way with that level of complexity for something like 100 years. So that\u2019s another investment.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It does, it goes through 12 pairs of skilled hands. Every single one of those bags goes through 12 pairs of skilled hands to get that project to at the end.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I sort of like scrummaged around in this sort of deepest, darkest, they call themselves antique centres, but my dad would\u2019ve called them junk shops, but that\u2019s where you find the real gold.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Our bag that\u2019s just like a tubular bag now, which is one of our absolute bestsellers.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It\u2019s a bag that I found.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n The date of the bag was 1938, and it was used to carry around two wooden lawn bowls when people took their lawn bowling really seriously.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n This bowls bag is a unique looking bag and people absolutely love it. That would\u2019ve been forgotten and the story of why it was created.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think that\u2019s what we love to do is just rediscover these bags from the past.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You think, no, that does not deserve to be forgotten. If we can bring it back and bring back that craftsmanship, then that\u2019s a real honour.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But my gosh, people have to please support British manufacturing because it\u2019s been through some really, really tough times. At the moment, times are tough again.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So every time you spend your money, just think you\u2019re supporting the business that you\u2019re spending it with.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n That\u2019s really important.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And Steve, tell me then about Sage and your commitment to bolstering the resilience of the UK and the economy, because this is a big thing for you guys, right?<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It is.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I mean, we have businesses all over the world. We have a big US business and big businesses in continental Europe, but we were born here [in the UK], 40 years ago, this is where Sage was invented.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n There\u2019s a spinoff out of Newcastle University founded in a pub in Newcastle.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think those roots matter. I think the fact that Julie manufactures in the UK is just absolutely amazing.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think too often there is this attitude of, well, where\u2019s the lowest cost place to do something. You have to start with customers and customer experience.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We sell to small to mid-size businesses. I think small to mid-size businesses care about their communities. They care about the places in which they operate.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I think you have to demonstrate a real commitment to the communities in which you operate.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We have a foundation that we set up seven or eight years ago.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We give all of our people at Sage five days\u2019 paid volunteering a year.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I remember when we first did that, people saying to me, \u201cThat\u2019s crazy. You\u2019re going to give people a whole week paid to not work.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I was like \u201cYes, it\u2019s part of the community, it\u2019s part of giving back.\u201d<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019m very proud of the fact that we\u2019re from the North East, we\u2019ve just invested heavily in new facilities in the North East.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We\u2019re sponsoring the new business exhibition centre up there.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Then we\u2019re going to call it The Sage. But it\u2019s all about creating that community and having commitment, that during difficult times, you\u2019re not just going to walk away because you can make \u00a310 (\u20ac19) more profit somewhere else.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n That\u2019s the wrong attitude. It\u2019s just the wrong attitude.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You have to take a long-term view.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n People sometimes say to me, how can you take a long-term view running a public company? Well, you can. You can, because you decide. Until someone fires you, you decide. I run Sage for the long term.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Of course, we have short-term commitments, but you have to create the right environment where people think I can experiment. I can try things.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n If it doesn\u2019t quite work out, we\u2019re not going to suddenly walk away because something went wrong.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We\u2019re going to learn from it and try and make it better.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So I think this commitment to communities, to the countries in which you operate is super important.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n And yeah, I think that\u2019s a lovely point to end on because you can be as resilient as you want within your business.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n But the only way to have a lasting model is to do the right thing and to do the right thing by your customers, your stakeholders, your suppliers, and that is the true secret of resilience.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So thank you so much to both of you. What amazing points and insights and stories.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I\u2019m glad that this is radio, because I actually have tears down my makeup from laughing at your stories, Julie.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So thank you.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n I can laugh at them now.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It\u2019s good to be able to look back and smile. Definitely.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Yes, it is. You\u2019ve definitely got to, and it does make you realise that it\u2019s not a smooth ride.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n So don\u2019t be too hard on yourself because people are botching things up left, right, and centre and still managed to survive.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n It wouldn\u2019t be as much fun if it was a smooth ride.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Wherever you\u2019re listening or watching, subscribe to Sound Advice on Apple iTunes<\/a> here.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n We are also on Spotify<\/a> and anywhere else you get your podcasts.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n Join our community to share your insights and stories on Twitter @SageIreland<\/a>\u00a0using the hashtag #SoundAdvicePodcast, on Instagram @SageOfficial<\/a> or in the comments below!<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n You can find Julie Deane on Twitter<\/a>.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n For more on The Cambridge Satchel Company, check out their website <\/a>or Twitter<\/a>.<\/p>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nIs resilience something we all instinctively have or do we learn it through adversity?<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
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How has the pandemic impacted businesses\u2014are we more resilient now than ever before?<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
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Two hours of brainstorming and a \u00a350m (\u20ac60m) business idea later\u2026<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
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A CFO left with \u00a34bn (\u20ac5bn) worth of debt, no CEO and thousands of employees depending on him<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
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Wearing down your rivals to reveal manufacturing secrets<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
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Being ruthless with your time, so you can be fully present in your contributions<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
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Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
When New York Fashion Week results in a backlog of 16,000 bags<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Julie Deane:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
You can never prepare for an excessive boom sales\u2014but you can learn from your past mistakes<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Julie Deane:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
The one challenge every business faces\u2014varying capacity<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Steve Hare:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Steve Hare:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
What to do when your own manufacturer steals your designs<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Julie Deane:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Julie Deane:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Choosing your premises based on which has fewer rat traps<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Julie Deane:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Technology allows businesses to focus less on admin and more on the important stuff<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Steve Hare:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
How Sage systems can make your life easier<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Julie Deane:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Julie Deane:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
An entrepreneurial mindset is key to adapting your business<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Julie Deane:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
The beauty of long forgotten British craftsmanship<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Julie Deane:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Demonstrating a commitment to your communities will strength their resilience<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Steve Hare:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Julie Deane:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Bex Burn-Callander:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Julie Deane:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Steve Hare:<\/h3>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Inspired by this small business story?<\/h2>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Want to know more about Julie Deane and The Cambridge Satchel Company?<\/h4>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
Or more about Sage\u2019s CEO, Steve Hare?<\/h4>\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n
![\"\"](\"https:\/\/www.sage.com\/en-ie\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/13\/2021\/08\/YBCA_FY19_Intacct_V3_0338-1-1215x810.jpg\")
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